Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
Phil Jackson: "Kobe has patterned himself after Michael......he is not michael"
Sccit:
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 18, 2011, 04:22:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 18, 2011, 01:23:12 PM ---So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.
--- End quote ---
No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.
The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.
Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.
--- End quote ---
LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.
OG Jaydc:
Yeah the lakers magically made it by the kings based on skill and teamwork. LMAO
Shallow:
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 19, 2011, 01:30:55 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 18, 2011, 04:22:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 18, 2011, 01:23:12 PM ---So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.
--- End quote ---
No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.
The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.
Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.
--- End quote ---
LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.
--- End quote ---
I never said anyone could have been put in their for the 3-peat, I simply questioned how strong the first punch needed to be, and that Magic, Larry, or MJ would have lead to more than just 3 rings with Shaq. I also think the dark re-building Lakers would have gone farther faster with those 3 guys at the helm than they did with Kobe.
I'm also acknowledging that the current Kobe could have done all of what I said those 3 greats could have done. Laugh all you want, that's how I feel.
.:DaYg0sTyLz:.:
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 18, 2011, 01:23:12 PM ---So Kobe gets penalized for being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.
--- End quote ---
Thats life. If Lebron wins a title alongside Wade, it wouldnt be viewed as great as it would if he did in Cleveland. Winning three titles as the #2 guy on the team will always be a part of Kobe's legacy, especially considering the fact that they sucked when Shaq left. Like it or not, thats just how it is. Like I said, he IS an all time great. But the bottom line is, he DOES have 2 titles as THE man for his team. He has 3 titles as the sidekick.
Sccit:
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 19, 2011, 10:03:16 AM ---
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 19, 2011, 01:30:55 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 18, 2011, 04:22:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: NIKCC on March 18, 2011, 01:23:12 PM ---So Kobe gets penalized from being part of the greatest 1-2 punch in history? lame argument, dicklickers.
--- End quote ---
No but the question lies in how effective that first punch either was or needed to be. Shaq in those years was a mid 80s Mike Tyson uppercut right on the chin. The first punch, the one that sets up the uppercut doesn't have to be dynamite left hook, which Kobe was. A solid left jab will be enough for the other fighter to respect it to leave some opening for the more forceful punch.
The Lakers really lost a step for a couple years when Kobe was trusted into the leader position. He has since more than made up for any criticism, but in the couple years after Shaq left it made me wonder how vital he really was to the 3-peat team. When Gretzky left the Oilers we saw that the punch that set up the hay-maker was a hay maker in itself with Messier, and we saw it right away. When Pippen took over for MJ they were still a hip skip and a jump away from another ring (I'm not sure that even with Jordan they would have won it all that year). When Shaq left they fell to under 500 with Kobe at the helm.
Like I said, Kobe has more than become everything you said he always was, I'm just not so sure he always was. Whether or not Kobe is is as good as Jordan or Magix now is one thing, but I think that 3-peat team is at least a 4peat team with Magic, Larry, or MJ teamed up with Shaq. And you can add current Kobe to that list.
--- End quote ---
LOL...when the lakers lost shaq, they lost the whole team, shaq was not the only one who left. new system, new coach, new players, new team. the lakers were basically an expansion team rebuilding around kobe. when jordan left the bulls, the team was still left in tact- same system, same coach, same players, same everything, minus jordan...if anything, that simple fact should be an argument against jordan in this kobe-jordan debate. bulls were still a 55 win team who made it to the eastern conference semi-finals, without jordan. if kobe was not on the lakers these last few years, no way they are a 50 win team, let alone a playoff team. as for you acting like threepeating is some simply walk in the park, psssh, yeaa right. do u know how hard it is to threepeat? lakers barely won some of those series's during the threepeat era, we almost got knocked off by the blazers and the kings along the way, it is not something that just any duo out there coulda pulled off...and during that run, who was the one closing out games for the lakers during crunch time, carrying the lakers with huge clutch plays in those 4th quarters with shaq on the bench? none other than kobe..plus, kobe and shaq were statistically neck-and-neck in those threepeat years, so for u to sit there and act like anyone out there coulda replaced him and they still woulda threepeated and/or won more titles is pretty insane. don't forget that shaq himself proclaimed kobe "the best player in the world" during those glory years.. if the lakers woulda remained in tact when shaq left, things woulda played out a lot different. instead, we got rudy-t (who left midway through the season) and an expansion team with kobe on it. definitely not fair to judge kobe based on those dark rebuilding years.
--- End quote ---
I never said anyone could have been put in their for the 3-peat, I simply questioned how strong the first punch needed to be, and that Magic, Larry, or MJ would have lead to more than just 3 rings with Shaq. I also think the dark re-building Lakers would have gone farther faster with those 3 guys at the helm than they did with Kobe.
I'm also acknowledging that the current Kobe could have done all of what I said those 3 greats could have done. Laugh all you want, that's how I feel.
--- End quote ---
kobe was 20-22 in those 3peat years....there's no way magic, jordan, or bird would have done any better at that age. at that age, jordan, magic, and bird were still in college. what kobe was doing at that age was unheard of. in fact, one can go ahead and say that if shaq were replaced by kareem, hakeem, or wilt, kobe woulda won more titles during those years. argument can go either way, but it doesn't help to sit here and wonder "what if"...trust me, if you followed the lakers during those years, you would know just how special kobe's talent was, even in his younger days, and how vital that talent was to any success the lakers had.
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