Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
Canelo vs. Angulo
DeeezNuuuts83:
A lot to discuss here...
Cotto is taking an big risk going to 160 (especially if they are going to the full weight limit), but if he wins, it will be a BIG statement. I don't see Floyd wanting a rematch with him, but Cotto-Alvarez would be a big fight, if they both win their upcoming fights. Golden Boy supposedly offered Cotto $10 million to fight Canelo, so if he beats Martinez, then he'll likely warrant a significantly bigger guarantee.
Mayorga isn't shit in the ring, but the guy is mad entertaining and talks a lot of shit... It's a shame he doesn't speak English. But I give the guy credit, he helps generate interest in the fight (particularly within the Spanish speaking demographic) but makes his peace with his opponents after. I thought it was cool how he legitimately apologized to Vargas and hugged him afterward, saying that it's just what he does to fuck with his opponents minds. And on that topic...
I used to root for Vargas (mostly because I grew up in Oxnard), but like someone else said, he had a hard time beating relevant guys toward the end of his career, losing to Trinidad, Oscar, Mosley, and even Mayorga. (But you could also say the same thing about Oscar.) He had an attitude, but it wasn't anything bad... just kind of typical of the Chicano bad asses from his age group in Oxnard. A lot of entertaining talk.
I never felt like Ortiz (ironically also from Oxnard) ever reminded me of Vargas, but I agree... if he loses his fight tomorrow, then that might be his swan song, as there won't really be any interest in watching him, given some of his more difficult losses that we've seen from him in the past several years. But if he wins, maybe they'll try to create buzz for Alvarez-Ortiz again (which was the plan before, until Ortiz got his jaw broken and lost).
Regarding the promoters... it's not all on Arum. If he isn't promoting anymore, whether he passes away or just bows out, yeah, it will be easier to make a lot more fights. But you could say the same thing if Golden Boy's leadership got dismantled. They basically deep throat Floyd all of the time, and it often involves them flinging dirt at Top Rank or whoever just to appease him and make it look like they're riding for him to keep his business. Obviously making the client happy is how to keep them, but they're firing a lot of warning shots in the process. They aren't even negotiating, but they have made it clear that there won't be a chance of a Mayweather-Pacquiao match unless Manny leaves Top Rank... and then a week ago, Richard Schaefer straight up called Manny a "desperate man." Seriously, that's not going to encourage Manny to leave his promoter to work with a guy who just called him desperate. Arum definitely isn't innocent, but as of recent, he hasn't been the one to talk shit worth mentioning to Golden Boy.
But if Floyd were truly independent (call it what you want, but when he fights only Golden Boy fighters exclusively and always uses their promotional services, then he's basically a Golden Boy fighter until he does a whole fight under his own steam or with some other promoter even once and not involve Golden Boy), then I have a feeling Golden Boy and Top Rank would play nice with each other. They used to... until Floyd came out of retirement.
whoisthis:
^Props.
Just to touch on the promoter situation:
If blame was a pie, the biggest slice would be given to Arum. He's been around forever. A lot of his tactics that he's using today are the same he used back in the day with Don King. There's a reason why he's still a top promoter so many years later. He's always had the leverage needed. But, with Floyd he lost that leverage. Al Haymon is the real reason why Golden Boy is in the driver seat.
Haymon should just be a promoter. But for whatever reason he loves to just be the "adviser." Almost every interview with his fighters is "I want to Thank God and Al Haymon." Haymon controls Floyd. Danny Garcia. Broner. Lara. Berto. Trout. Quillin. Keith Thurman. And more. These are some of the top guys and guess what banner they "fight" under? Golden Boy. So, now, all the leverage goes to Golden Boy because Arum's top guy fights in and around the weight class that all of Haymon's guys do. Golden Boy and Al Haymon are basically trying to force Arum out and he's refusing to leave.
If he was easier to work with, we would've seen a ton of fights happen by now. But, he has to face the fact that he's not getting Floyd back. And Manny might just go "independent" when his contract is up. If Arum left Top Rank, the last wall to break would be HBO. They are another large share of the blame pie.
Much like Arum, they've been on top forever. Losing Floyd hurt them, too. When Stephen Espinoza went to head up their competition, they threw down an ultimatum. Golden Boy called their bluff and really left HBO with very little.
--- Quote ---SI.com: Taking Floyd away from HBO was a major coup for Showtime. Looking back, how were you able to do it?
SE: It was the result of a couple of things. One, the CBS platform was a big attraction for Floyd. Being able to be exposed not just on the CBS television network, but bringing in CBS Outdoor, CBS Interactive, CNET, TV Guide, TV.com and the whole range of assets, including the CBS Sports radio network, an outlet he didn't have access to. That was, from a business standpoint, the fundamental attraction.
From a non-business point, I think some irritations had built up [with HBO] over the years. A fresh start with someone that had a different perspective was probably appealing to him. After a year, in hindsight, I couldn't have asked for it to have gone any better. There were things I'd like to improve on, but overall, I'm thrilled with it
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma/news/20131223/showtime-stephen-espinoza-interview/#ixzz2rus1KWvk
--- End quote ---
It had nothing to do with the CBS Platform for Floyd. It was the latter part. HBO is notorious for wanting to control the situation. With the ex-attorney for Golden Boy having all of Golden Boy's fighters to himself, all the control is in the hands of Golden Boy. Why? Because Showtime is essentially an extension of Golden Boy. It's virtually their own network. They don't have competition. The Promoter can do as they please.
HBO now has Top Rank and the lesser options like Goosen, DiBella and even 50 Cent since he has dudes like Kirkland and Gamboa. That's a lot of Chiefs who do not want to be Indians. It's a free for all and old style Boxing politics made it that way for HBO and Top Rank.
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: whoisthis on January 30, 2014, 12:47:07 PM ---Just to touch on the promoter situation:
If blame was a pie, the biggest slice would be given to Arum. He's been around forever. A lot of his tactics that he's using today are the same he used back in the day with Don King. There's a reason why he's still a top promoter so many years later. He's always had the leverage needed. But, with Floyd he lost that leverage.
--- End quote ---
But if the guy has been around so long and acquiring talent, then he's been doing something right. Yes, he and Don King are from the old school, but it's not like we've been seeing Don King make a lot of moves or sign any of today's most prominent boxers. But you have to give him credit... he did help a lot of boxers become superstars. Yes, Oscar's and Floyd's biggest paydays came after their departures from Top Rank, but it's not like their popularity didn't increase from Arum's promotion. The kind of money they got after was just a result of striking out on your own, which happens in a number of industries... just look at the recording industry, when big successes finish up their recording contracts with whichever company signed them, then move on to form their own record label and release their own albums through it.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on January 30, 2014, 12:47:07 PM ---Al Haymon is the real reason why Golden Boy is in the driver seat.
Haymon should just be a promoter. But for whatever reason he loves to just be the "adviser." Almost every interview with his fighters is "I want to Thank God and Al Haymon." Haymon controls Floyd. Danny Garcia. Broner. Lara. Berto. Trout. Quillin. Keith Thurman. And more. These are some of the top guys and guess what banner they "fight" under? Golden Boy. So, now, all the leverage goes to Golden Boy because Arum's top guy fights in and around the weight class that all of Haymon's guys do. Golden Boy and Al Haymon are basically trying to force Arum out and he's refusing to leave.
--- End quote ---
Haymon is definitely in a powerful position, but staying out of the promotion category gives him a little bit of flexibility since he doesn't represent a specific brand that would get in the way... kind of like how trainers work with the fighter(s) specifically and don't really care much for the promotional banner. He and Golden Boy together, in an unofficial alliance, have a strong hand, but they don't quite have the leverage to force Arum out... at least not this year. Golden Boy does have Floyd essentially and a lot of other up-and-coming talent (which helps stack their undercards legitimately, which helps get another couple hundred thousand PPV buys -- as something like Canelo vs. Mosley definitely helped encourage people to buy Mayweather vs. Cotto), but Top Rank is still home to Manny, at least until the end of 2014. Bradley re-signed for another year (and, when asked about why, made a good point about declining a contract extension with Top Rank wouldn't guarantee him a Mayweather fight). Marquez is still there. Cotto is on his own and did do some business with Golden Boy, but he maintains good ties with Top Rank and is working with them again, so Arum can't be THAT bad if Cotto has the freedom to go wherever but still works with them willingly. Rios-Alvarado III is still something we want to see, even if they're both coming off of losses.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on January 30, 2014, 12:47:07 PM ---If he was easier to work with, we would've seen a ton of fights happen by now. But, he has to face the fact that he's not getting Floyd back. And Manny might just go "independent" when his contract is up. If Arum left Top Rank, the last wall to break would be HBO. They are another large share of the blame pie.
--- End quote ---
Top Rank and Golden Boy did play nice for quite a while, like I said, and we got a lot of memorable fights out of it... Cotto-Mosley, De La Hoya-Pacquiao, Mosley-Margarito, Pacquiao-Hatton, etc. De La Hoya-Cotto was even supposed to happen, until Cotto lost to Margarito. So they made it work before. And like I said before, the rift wasn't there until Floyd came back. Not saying it's Floyd's fault, but it's just an interesting coincidence.
But Arum was never going to get Floyd "back." He never said anything about making Floyd sign to Top Rank, as it's generally always been a joint effort between Top Rank and Golden Boy negotiating the terms, with both sides talking shit about each other and blaming the other side for some reason while going to the media to say whatever (it's happening, it's not happening, it's close to being finalized, the fight is off, etc.). However, outside of Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, I will say that Golden Boy has probably made more concessions than Top Rank... but in the actual Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, I personally place more blame on Golden Boy and Team Mayweather.
With the talk of trying to chop down Top Rank and HBO... you're basically just talking about creating a monopoly, which would obviously make fights easier to make, but a monopoly isn't always a good thing.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on January 30, 2014, 12:47:07 PM ---Much like Arum, they've been on top forever. Losing Floyd hurt them, too. When Stephen Espinoza went to head up their competition, they threw down an ultimatum. Golden Boy called their bluff and really left HBO with very little.
It had nothing to do with the CBS Platform for Floyd. It was the latter part. HBO is notorious for wanting to control the situation. With the ex-attorney for Golden Boy having all of Golden Boy's fighters to himself, all the control is in the hands of Golden Boy. Why? Because Showtime is essentially an extension of Golden Boy. It's virtually their own network. They don't have competition. The Promoter can do as they please.
HBO now has Top Rank and the lesser options like Goosen, DiBella and even 50 Cent since he has dudes like Kirkland and Gamboa. That's a lot of Chiefs who do not want to be Indians. It's a free for all and old style Boxing politics made it that way for HBO and Top Rank.
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't say that HBO was on top forever. Remember that a lot of the older fights from the '90s were Showtime... I believe Holyfield-Tyson II was on Showtime, and that held the PPV record until De La Hoya-Mayweather. I could be wrong, but I feel like Showtime did a good job at getting the heavyweight fights, while HBO seemed to get a lot of the other fights.
HBO had a stronghold on boxing for a lot of the 2000s to now, but realistically, you have to give some props to Arum for Showtime coming back. Remember that he took his fights to Showtime in 2011, and they did really well... only then did we hear about the possibility of utilizing CBS and a lot of the associated networks. (Remember that when Floyd was asked if he was going to watch Pacquiao-Mosley on Showtime, he said that he would instead be watching Lady Gaga perform on HBO.) That move lost HBO some money, and they even fired one of their execs for losing that business, particularly Pacquiao-Mosley (which did generate 1.3 million PPV buys). I'm not saying that Arum is what helped Showtime become what they are, but the short stint with Showtime deserves to be on a timeline of events leading to what you are describing. It shook up HBO a little bit while giving Showtime a shot to flex in modern day boxing promotion.
But I don't think it's a problem of "old style boxing politics" causing the rifts. It's just a clash between the old promoters who still manage to stay relevant (otherwise they'd have faded away by now and lost all of their talent) and the new promoters, who learned from their previous experiences as fighters themselves but now work with fighters who they give far more control to and let them dictate their own terms... yes, it's great for the fighters, but when the fighter is being unreasonable, there's really no one in a position to tell them to stop being a diva. It's like that in basketball too (except it's teams instead of promoters)... in a day and age where damn near everyone good enough to be on the All-Star team is getting eight figures annually -- remember that Michael Jordan didn't get that until his last two seasons with the Bulls when he had already won four rings going into that -- people are bowing down to the players a little more than they should to the point where the players think that they are bigger than the sport. It's not to say that they aren't good at what they do or deserve what they are getting paid, but people are being extremely ungrateful and acting like they rule the world.
50 is part of the new generation of promoters, but it seems like he understands it. He's a good businessman (you don't build a $300 million fortune by accident), and he's said time and time again that he thought it was stupid for Floyd to brush aside a fight with Manny when interest was at its peak. Yes, it's Manny's fault for not having won either of his fights in 2012, but you can't expect interest to continuously peak (or at least stay at its peak) over the course of a number of years when considering that boxing is a risky sport where anything could happen. It would've been a good time for someone down with Floyd to sit down with him and just tell him to just take the fight when the other guy has already agreed to the terms that he has changed time and time again. But think about it... 50 was viewed as being best friends with Floyd but eventually split from TMT and did his own thing, and maintains a decent relationship with Arum (remember he put Gamboa on the Pacquiao-Marquez IV undercard). Does that say anything?
DeeezNuuuts83:
Aaaand good night, Mr. Ortiz
O.G A.Geesta'z:
well that was short.. didnt see that coming... have fun being a janitor Victor Ortiz
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