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Lakers on an uprise...just missing a few pieces to the puzzle.

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Now_Im_Not_Banned:

--- Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on August 23, 2005, 11:16:44 AM ---
--- Quote from: Now_Im_Blowed on August 23, 2005, 10:00:05 AM ---
--- Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on August 23, 2005, 04:47:14 AM ---
--- Quote from: ACB on August 23, 2005, 03:49:34 AM ---[/unbiased Basketball fan ON]


--- Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on August 23, 2005, 12:22:49 AM ---its probably silly to even ask this to a Kobe fan, but you seem sorta mature compared to these other clowns lol. But do you honestly....HONESTLY think Kobe would have performed like Lebron did in his first year if he was placed in Lebrons shoes?
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I don't know. I mean i'm a Laker fan, and i only watch Lakers games, so i can't say a lot about LeBron, cause i've seen him just a pair of times in full games. But i know Kobe. I do since i'm Italian and my father used to be a referee in our italian league. He knew Kobe's father (OT: good luck coaching the Sparks), and he knew Kobe too, not as a player, but as a little kid. He was involved in the Kobe's-father-buying-the-Milan-basketball-team operation 3-4 years ago, so he's still in contact with him. Somehow Kobe is special to me. My father tells me about when he was in Reggio Emilia being the referee of a local match (Kobe's father played for Reggio Emilia), and Kobe, who was just a kid, used to hit 3pts during half time, making the crowd jump off their seats screaming his name. He was like the mascotte of the team. He looked 15 years old, lol, but he was like 6-7. That's why i've always liked Kobe, since his first day in the NBA. Add the fact that he speaks fluent in Italian, and you have my "hero". But honestly i dont think he was ready to play in the NBA. He was like Sasha Vujacic, another guard i know who grew up in Italy. He had skills, but he didnt have an NBA mentality and he wasnt a "basketball" player enought to be ready for a contender team. Just like Sasha. Personally i think Kobe gotta thank a lot of people: Tex Winter, who made him an impact SG player, Eddie Jones, who helped him in his early years, Ron Harper and Brian Shaw, who were like fathers for him (expecially when he wasnt on good terms with his real one), Jerry West, for trading Eddie Jones and giving Kobe the needed spootlight, Fisher, Fox, Horry... all those player who are real men first, then great players later. You know what i mean? He wasnt ready for the NBA yet, but those players plus Phil Jackson made him what he is today. They changed him from Tracy McGrady to 3 and a half titles. LeBron? LeBron looks like he's 30. Not only phisical, but also because he looks to be a mature man, who doesnt need all the players/men who helped Kobe. It's like if LeBron has seen a VHS of Kobe's career, and he already knows what to do and how to do it. He's Kobe when he finished his developing process. That's where i do agree with Magic. Kobe wasnt ready, LeBron is. But Kobe had the pleasure to be a Laker, something Lebron will probably never have. And Kobe had the pleasure to be a Laker when the Lakers were missing him to be a contender team. Lebron i dont know if he'll be in a team as strong as the 3peat Lakers. That's why people will always remember Kobe for the 3 rings. That's why i still prefeer Kobe. That's why Kobe is a champion, and LeBron is still a "baby". Cause no matter what, it's all about them rings. And Kobe, helped by all those people surrounding him, was been the main reason why the Lakers won 3 rings (no Kobe no rings! Somebody should remember it to Shaq!).


--- Quote ---Youre only showing the possitives for Lebron and negatives for Kobe to support your argument. Not showing how much more pressure Lebron was under to perform then Kobe. If Kobe was a bust, then like u said....he was only a #13 pick and a backup behind a fan favorite anyways. If Lebron failed, it would be Clevelands immediate future out the window. Alot of pressure for a young kid to step into the NBA and instantly be the leader of a team. Kobe could hardly handle that last year lol. Let alone his rookie year.
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Yeah LeBron is coming out pretty well, i can't deny it. I dont hate on him, I'm simply a Laker fan who supports Kobe more, obviously.

[unbiased Basketball fan OFF]

[/Laker fan mode ON]


--- Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on August 23, 2005, 12:22:49 AM ---its probably silly to even ask this to a Kobe fan, but you seem sorta mature compared to these other clowns lol. But do you honestly....HONESTLY think Kobe would have performed like Lebron did in his first year if he was placed in Lebrons shoes?
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First of all let me say that Kobe averaged 15.5 mins in his first NBA season, and 26.0 in his second.
Let's make a comparision between Kobe and Lebron, by calculating their rookie stats per 40 mins.

Kobe Bryant, 18 years old, averaged 19.5 points, 4.8 rebs, 3.3 assists and 1.8 steals in 40 minutes.
LeBron James, 19 years old, averaged 21.2 points, 5.5 rebs, 6.0 assists and 1.7 steals in 40 minutes.

Honestly, they aint "so" different, considering Kobe was a kid in a contender team, while LeBron was the Cavs. And that Kobe was 18 years old in a period where there were probably just like 3-4 other players "that" young in the league. Now it's all about HS players, you know, it's a totally different scenario!

Btw it's even closer in their second years..

Kobe Bryant, 19 years old, averaged 23.7 points, 4.7 rebs, 3.9 assists and 1.4 steals in 40 minutes.
LeBron James, 20 years old, averaged 25.7 points, 6.9 rebs, 6.8 assists and 2.1 steals in 40 minutes.

LeBron's stats are better, but that's partially because he didnt have Shaq to share the ball with.

Kobe took his time to blow in the league as the best SG in the game. Something LeBron still has to do. 8)

[/Laker fan mode OFF]

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for the first half of your post....you might be right, no Kobe...no rings. But at the same time, no Shaq...no playoffs.

for the second half, this is where the problem comes into play when i argue with all these Laker fans. Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten the idea that stats make u great. they dont. leading your team makes u great. if stats are how we judge greatness...then Magic is only the second greatest passer ever. Id put him at first, but the stats say Stockton. stats are great for basketball cards and ESPN "Did you knows" but they dont show who is really great or who is a real leader for their team. What im saying about Kobe is that he couldnt have made Cleveland a legitimate team like Lebron did this fast in his career. Kobe during his first couple years showed talent, but definetely....DEFINETELY not the ability to lead. And last year, after how many years in the league...things were the same. He didnt lead. He got his stats...and thats it. Thats not greatness. Lebron honestly IMO did a better job LEADING his team last year then Kobe did his. And Lebron still has some work to do on his leadership skills. So where does that leave Kobe? This whole argument was about who u would take to start your franchise from this point on. I said id take Lebron cus his upside is FAR higher then Kobe's....from THIS point on. Lebron still has a ton of room to improve and he was an MVP candidate last year. Its rare that many players improve during the second half of their career and typically its big men if anything. So other then being a Kobe fan, how do people not see that he falls into the same category. Yeah, he COULD improve. Im not saying its impossible. Im saying i dont think his improvement (if any) would be so drastic that theyll win another championship without some SERIOUS help. Like it or not, he won those rings WITH Shaq. Shaq has gone to the finals with the Lakers and the Magic and Miami was in good position to last year. Kobe still has to prove he can even make the playoffs without Shaq. To think that Kobe, on the perimeter was somehow helping Shaq on the inside more then the other way around only shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Any coach in this league would take a dominant big man in the middle over a dominant perimeter player. Theres so many more matchup problems a dominant big man can create as well as setting up all his perimeter players. Kobe's game, like it or not, was drastically helped by Shaqs presence. Anyways, fuckit this is getting boring lol Me, Scittles and Jake have gone back and forth since the beginning of time on this and nothing ever changes. Ive always admitted that i like Kobe's game. But the Kobe fans cant seem to get it outta their heads that he isnt perfect, and he definetely isnt Jordan lol. He's good, but his little spoiled brat "give me all the spotlight" attitude will always give him this kind of negative attention.

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You honestly don't think that the 3peat Lakers minus Shaq wouldn't make the playoffs? LOL...The team that didn't make the playoffs last year was an expansion team with Kobe. Kobe STILL showed leadership skills and STILL helped every player on the team improve their game, from Chucky Atkins, to Chris Mihm. From Tierre Brown, to Caron Butler... Through injury, coaching changes, and basically a plagued team, Kobe still pulled through, still played like a superstar (without Shaq), and still mentored the new Laker players...The fact that the season plan went down the drain halfway through is not in Kobe's hands...LeBron did a better job leading? LMFAO. LeBron couldn't make the playoffs in the EAST with and all-star center by his side and a nice supporting cast who've been together enough to build chemistry. That's why you got players like Jeff McInnis leaving Cleveland, because they know they can shine better on other team...Shaq has gone to the playoffs with NBA superstars to guide him, like Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and Dwayne Wade. Shaq hasn't proven any more than Kobe has. You said you'd take LeBron to start your franchise. 30 GM's + I said Kobe was the man we'd take to start our franchise. Who has more to back them? 8)

--- End quote ---

the 3peat lakers minus Shaq....might have still made the playoffs. But take Kobe off the team, and the team still had a chance to make the finals.

--- End quote ---


LOL...This is where the stupidity kicks in. 1995 Orlando Magic >>> 3peat Lakers minus Kobe.

Now_Im_Not_Banned:

--- Quote from: Abhshil on August 23, 2005, 11:18:05 AM ---if 30 other GM's had to start with a franchise player i dont think all of em would pick kobe i can see some of em going with james or kg

--- End quote ---


Welll, I didn't make it up...It was a poll they had last year with all the GM's. All 30 said they'd pick Kobe to start their franchise.

TeeRaySix9Teen:

--- Quote from: ACB on August 23, 2005, 02:29:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on August 23, 2005, 04:47:14 AM ---for the first half of your post....you might be right, no Kobe...no rings. But at the same time, no Shaq...no playoffs.
--- End quote ---

That's an horrible statement, from every point of view. First of all Jerry West traded everybody included their mama to sign Shaq. So he gave Shaq the keys of the team, and he did it for good. But, just to make you an example, the 1997-98 team had 3 players who went in the All Star Game other than Shaq: Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Kobe. It was the only team in the league with no 30+ years old players in the roster. It was a great team, who just had to develop into the 3peat one. I wouldnt go as far as saying no Shaq no playoffs: matter of fact the 1995-96 team, the one before Shaq, had a 53-wins record and the 2nd place in the Pacific Division spot. So no Shaq = 52 wins.


--- Quote ---for the second half, this is where the problem comes into play when i argue with all these Laker fans. Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten the idea that stats make u great. they dont. leading your team makes u great. if stats are how we judge greatness...then Magic is only the second greatest passer ever. Id put him at first, but the stats say Stockton. stats are great for basketball cards and ESPN "Did you knows" but they dont show who is really great or who is a real leader for their team. What im saying about Kobe is that he couldnt have made Cleveland a legitimate team like Lebron did this fast in his career.
--- End quote ---

A legitimate team? You mean LeBron made Cleveland a legitimate team by didnt reaching the Play Offs in the Eastern Conference for 2 straight years? Didn't know the real definition of "legitimate team" and the real meaning of "being the leader of a team". Now i do. Thank you LeBron!


--- Quote ---Kobe during his first couple years showed talent, but definetely....DEFINETELY not the ability to lead.
--- End quote ---

He didnt have to. He was a rookie in a contender team runned by Shaq. He was the SG of the Lakers. Don't even compare it with the hopeless Cavs who signed LeBron to save them from being considered a total failure.


--- Quote ---And last year, after how many years in the league...things were the same. He didnt lead. He got his stats...and thats it. Thats not greatness. Lebron honestly IMO did a better job LEADING his team last year then Kobe did his. And Lebron still has some work to do on his leadership skills. So where does that leave Kobe? This whole argument was about who u would take to start your franchise from this point on. I said id take Lebron cus his upside is FAR higher then Kobe's....from THIS point on. Lebron still has a ton of room to improve and he was an MVP candidate last year. Its rare that many players improve during the second half of their career and typically its big men if anything. So other then being a Kobe fan, how do people not see that he falls into the same category. Yeah, he COULD improve. Im not saying its impossible. Im saying i dont think his improvement (if any) would be so drastic that theyll win another championship without some SERIOUS help. Like it or not, he won those rings WITH Shaq. Shaq has gone to the finals with the Lakers and the Magic and Miami was in good position to last year. Kobe still has to prove he can even make the playoffs without Shaq.
--- End quote ---

Matter of fact LeBron too.


--- Quote ---To think that Kobe, on the perimeter was somehow helping Shaq on the inside more then the other way around only shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Any coach in this league would take a dominant big man in the middle over a dominant perimeter player. Theres so many more matchup problems a dominant big man can create as well as setting up all his perimeter players. Kobe's game, like it or not, was drastically helped by Shaqs presence. Anyways, fuckit this is getting boring lol Me, Scittles and Jake have gone back and forth since the beginning of time on this and nothing ever changes. Ive always admitted that i like Kobe's game. But the Kobe fans cant seem to get it outta their heads that he isnt perfect, and he definetely isnt Jordan lol. He's good, but his little spoiled brat "give me all the spotlight" attitude will always give him this kind of negative attention.
--- End quote ---

What about the new commercial of Nike about Kobe? That attitude is never described by the media, uh?

--- End quote ---

first, i was talking about last year. Remember, one of these people im arguing with here is NIK who at the beginning of last year went on and on about how the Lakers would still be good because Kobe had good role players around him like Odom. Then, now....to defend Kobe says how he had no help.

second, where was cleveland the year before Lebron. at least they are contending now, even if it is only to get in the playoffs. and theyll for sure make it in next year where LA still might not.

Yeah, Kobe didnt HAVE to be a leader on the Lakers when he came in. But even the biggest Kobe dickrider on earth couldnt say that he had the mentality to be able to lead an NBA team his rookie...or even sophomore year. Not one person on EARTH who knows basketball would say that. That is my point.

Lebron too? Makes no sense. Neither Lebron or Kobe had help last year. Kobe is a veteran in this league....Lebron is still a kid. This argument on who is a better leader shouldnt even be able to be made. But it is, because of Kobe's lack of leadership skills and Lebrons maturity.

Like i said before, this argument is getting really boring. Its like arguing with some of these crazy religious fanatics about their religion. kobe is obviously your guys God lol. Sad...but true. During this argument ive even admitted i like his game, but there are negatives to him that made him and his team unsuccessful last year. You guys keep blaming everybody BUT him for any failures he has. Thats the definition of a dickrider...not a fan. As a fan, you see all aspects....positive AND negatives to whoever youre a fan of. Not ONE of you guys has admitted that there is ANYthing wrong with Kobe. He is perfect in your eyes. You gotta be kidding me...no matter how many points i prove, it wont matter. Christians cant prove the theory's of the Bible...but theyll always believe it no matter how many facts are against them. Oh well....keep worshipping u guys lol

acbaylove:

--- Quote ---first, i was talking about last year. Remember, one of these people im arguing with here is NIK who at the beginning of last year went on and on about how the Lakers would still be good because Kobe had good role players around him like Odom. Then, now....to defend Kobe says how he had no help.
--- End quote ---

It's exactly the same excuse LeBron fans are saying to defend Cavs failure to reach the Play Offs for 2 straight years.


--- Quote ---second, where was cleveland the year before Lebron. at least they are contending now, even if it is only to get in the playoffs. and theyll for sure make it in next year where LA still might not.
--- End quote ---

The team before LeBron didnt reached the Play Offs for 5 straight years. The team after LeBron havent reached them yet after 2 years. I see no differences at all. Now the only difference is that they have the most publicized player in the League and Cavs, once one of the worse NBA team in the League, is one of the most appealing because they always go to National TV and because LeBron is a media-star. But it's 7 years and running with no Play Offs. I'll listen to people talking about how a leader LeBron is the very first day he'll play a minute in the Play Offs.


--- Quote ---Yeah, Kobe didnt HAVE to be a leader on the Lakers when he came in. But even the biggest Kobe dickrider on earth couldnt say that he had the mentality to be able to lead an NBA team his rookie...or even sophomore year. Not one person on EARTH who knows basketball would say that. That is my point.
--- End quote ---

Not an interesting one. Expecially since 10 years ago a rookie from High School was something "wrong" for the NBA. Something so strange that Kobe was like an alien, like a kid in a grown men's world. Now it's all about HS players, so they're more prepared, and the teams/the media/the teammates are more prepared. Kobe 10 years ago was like a non-American player in the NBA: something "strange" that people wasnt prepared for. He was like Tony Kukoc. People just refused to give him enought props because he was European, they always repeated "who's this European kid? He can't play like we do" to themselves. Even Jordan had problems accepting him. Kobe was like that: people refused to give him props and attention just because he was 18 years old. But no matter what he forced West to trade Eddie Jones, the fan fav player on the team, to reach a better minutage. Shit man now Bynum and Gerrard Green are receiving love and it looks like the most "normal" thing in the world that they was selected being 17-18. So to compare the two situations is not a good thing. Kobe entered the league 10 YEARS AGO. It was a totally different game/scenario. Plus he joined the Lakers, a contender team runned by Shaq. So he didnt have to be a leader from the first moment, since that wasnt "his" team. LeBron had to be the leader since day 1. Cause Cavs is "his" team. To compare the two scenarios is just stupid.


--- Quote ---Lebron too? Makes no sense. Neither Lebron or Kobe had help last year. Kobe is a veteran in this league....Lebron is still a kid. This argument on who is a better leader shouldnt even be able to be made. But it is, because of Kobe's lack of leadership skills and Lebrons maturity.
--- End quote ---

That's just your opinion. 30 GM's + Nik and I thinks Kobe is the best player to build a team around.


--- Quote ---Like i said before, this argument is getting really boring. Its like arguing with some of these crazy religious fanatics about their religion. kobe is obviously your guys God lol. Sad...but true. During this argument ive even admitted i like his game, but there are negatives to him that made him and his team unsuccessful last year. You guys keep blaming everybody BUT him for any failures he has. Thats the definition of a dickrider...not a fan. As a fan, you see all aspects....positive AND negatives to whoever youre a fan of. Not ONE of you guys has admitted that there is ANYthing wrong with Kobe. He is perfect in your eyes. You gotta be kidding me...no matter how many points i prove, it wont matter. Christians cant prove the theory's of the Bible...but theyll always believe it no matter how many facts are against them. Oh well....keep worshipping u guys lol
--- End quote ---

???

TeeRaySix9Teen:

--- Quote from: Now_Im_Blowed on August 23, 2005, 03:13:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: Abhshil on August 23, 2005, 11:18:05 AM ---if 30 other GM's had to start with a franchise player i dont think all of em would pick kobe i can see some of em going with james or kg

--- End quote ---


Welll, I didn't make it up...It was a poll they had last year with all the GM's. All 30 said they'd pick Kobe to start their franchise.

--- End quote ---

well, take the same poll this year and see what the results are lol. Btw...only one GM actually GOT to build their franchise around Kobe last year...maybe theyll sneak into the playoffs this year...lol

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