Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair

[Mo Z. Dizzle]

Bret and Ric dun liek each other nemore after Flair's book (Flair said that Bret used Owne's death to his advantage). Both claim they are the better than the other. What do otherz think?

my vote is for Hart.

[herpes]

this is hard

ring work Bret >> Ric
mic skills Ric >> Bret

i gotta go with bret b/c i grew up watching bret in his prime.  I go back to the hart foundation days when they beat demolition in a 2 outta 3 falls match at summerslam

[DAYUM]

Bret Hart

[Shallow]

If you are comparing career vs career and you are basing it on all hte aspects of pro wrestling (drawing, inring, mic skills, longevity, getting other guys over) then it's Flair by a landslide.

[Larrabee]

I feel like Bret's career was cut short. Had that serious injury not sidelined him for good, who knows what could've been. Just 3 months after his last match, he wrestled one of the greatest matches I've ever seen ( vs. Chris Benoit on an October edition of WCW Nitro ). Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle would be a wrestling clinic.

[Perfection]

Defintely Bret when it comes to inring skills. Kurt Angle has challenged Bret to a match but because of the concusions & the stroke & Bret not wanting to be on WWE tv that match will never happen.

[AlerG]

Bret is the best there is, was, and ever will be, peace.

[Sikotic™]

Bret by far. Ric Flair is really entertaining, but Bret was better as a wrestler.

[Shallow]

Am I the only one that watch Flair wrestle in the late 70s and early 80s? Bret was amazing but only really for the last 6 years of his career ('92 to '99). Before that he was just great. His Stampede stuff can't compare to Flair's early 80s work. No matter who was in there with Flair he made you look like a champ. Whether it was Dusty Rhodes or Nikita Kolaaf. Then take his classics with Von Erich, Windham, Sting, Garvin, and Funk, and add the masterpieces with Race and Steamboat and realize he was at his prime for 15 years straight, I don't think you can say anyone was better than Flair by far, except Jumbo Tsuruta. Bret may be better at his peak but over it's Flair. He was toogood for too long. To use a baseball analogy, Bret may have had a few 60 HR seasons, but Flair had 15 35 HR seasons in a row. Add them up and Flair has the greater total.

[Trauma-san]

^ I wouldn't even agree with THAT analogy.  I don't think Bret has ever been better in the ring, in his prime, than Flair was in the ring, in his prime.  Flair has not only had more years of great wrestling, he's had years of being flat-out better in the ring than Bret ever was.  In my opinion, Flair is STILL a great wrestler, even as an old man. 

Flair by a landslide.  That's not taking anything away from Bret, because he was a great, great wrestler.  He was never Ric Flair, though. 

[Shallow]

^ I wouldn't even agree with THAT analogy.  I don't think Bret has ever been better in the ring, in his prime, than Flair was in the ring, in his prime.  Flair has not only had more years of great wrestling, he's had years of being flat-out better in the ring than Bret ever was.  In my opinion, Flair is STILL a great wrestler, even as an old man. 

Flair by a landslide.  That's not taking anything away from Bret, because he was a great, great wrestler.  He was never Ric Flair, though. 

Yeah I was just trying to use the logic of the others to show that even if Bret is better, he's not better in the long haul. To be honest I could go either way on who's better in the ring. They were so close to me that I pretty much give it to Flair because of more high profile classics. Flair may lose some points for being repetitive, but if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Perfection]

This is what Bret Hart had to say about Ric Flair after Flair's book came out:

I’m sure that if wrestling fans will give some thought to what I’ve
written here, you’ll find it to be more accurate and far more interesting than
Ric Flair’s book.
I don’t know if I’m more infuriated or disappointed by the derogatory
things he wrote, not just about me, but about other hard working members of
the wrestling fraternity, like Randy Savage and Mick Foley. I wasn’t going
to comment because I didn’t want to promote Flair’s book for him, but as has
become usual in wrestling the truth is getting rewritten again and I’m one of
the few guys who is trying to preserve an accurate chronicle of the wrestling
of our era.
It bears mentioning that if I didn’t have some measure of respect for
Flair his comments wouldn’t have phased me one way or the other. Sadly, the
way he has jumped to erroneous conclusions and put them out there for the
public as the truth has eroded whatever respect I had for him. Everybody has a
right to their opinion, but in my view a valid opinion should be backed up by
facts.
Yes, I did make some unflattering comments about Flair and Hogan back
in the early 90’s. I then rethought what I’d said and in the interest of doing
business with them, for the greater good of the business, I made a sincere
effort to apologize to both of them, publicly and privately. They each shook
my hand and told me not to worry about it and that it wasn’t an issue, but when
I got to WCW I was never given any kind of a chance and whether either one
or both of them was behind it I’ll probably never know, other than hearsay.
Now, years later, Hogan and Flair have both spoken inaccurately about me and
have tried to debunk and minimize my contributions to a business that I was
born into and have devoted my life to with deep passion and dedication.
Wrestling wasn’t just a job for me, it was the only way of life I knew long before
either Hogan or Flair laced up a pair of boots and took their first wrestling
lesson to see what it was like.
Never, in all my life, have I ever been so infuriated by ridiculous
statements made about me. Perhaps they were purposely designed to get my
response and sell more books, who knows. Who cares?
Flair talks about how I could be the president of my own fan club. All
I can say is, he’s one to talk! Self promotion was an intricate key to any
wrestler making it in the business. He convinced a legion of fans that he
was the best in the business - and there’s nothing wrong with that. He even
convinced himself. But his peers, the guys who worked with him night after
night, know better. How could any fan know what kind of a worker Ric Flair
really is without actually working with him?
Flair says that I believed my own press and convinced myself that I’m
the best there is. When I boast about being the best there is, it is because
of three reasons. The first and most important is that I never injured any
wrestler in any way despite my physical style. This is something in which I
take a lot of pride and I don’t know of anyone, who worked a schedule on par
with mine for as long as I did, who can truthfully make that same claim. The
second reason is that in the fourteenyears I was with the WWF, often wrestling
three hundred times per year, I missed but one match - and that was due to a
canceled flight. Again, I don’t think there is anyone who worked that schedule
who can truthfully make that claim. Everyone on the road worked hard but I
was proud to be counted among the handful of guys with an exceptionally
dedicated work ethic. The third reason is that throughout my career I never once
refused to put over a fellow wrestler - except at Survivor Series ‘97. In a
conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I
was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know
that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem
whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that,
but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This
was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his
disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways. Vince told me
that I could leave any way I liked, not to mention the fact that I had
contractual creative control for my last thirty days. The idea for him to beat me in
Canada was solely conceived to ruin me as a commodity in my home country where
WCW had big plans for me. Not to mention that when Shawn Michaels mocked
fornicating with the Canadian flag in the middle of the ring it went beyond
being personal to me, my fans, and my country!
I remember Ric Flair and Bobby Heenan coming up to me in the
dressing room in Nashville on May 6, 1989. I was in the Hart Foundation at the
time and Flair told me he was honored to shake my hand. I had never seen him
work. Being on the WWF road schedule made it nearly impossible to catch any
wrestling matches on TV because we were almost always working or traveling when
wrestling was on. From what little I did see of the NWA my impression was that
their TV show at that time was poorly produced and made the wrestlers come
off as second rate. Despite that, I’d been lead to believe, like everyone
else, that Ric Flair was the best in the business. I always wondered, if he was
the best why wasn’t he in the big league WWF? His popularity at that time
was largely concentrated in the deep south. I appreciated his compliment and
hoped I might have the chance to work with this legend some day.
About a year later Flair was head booker at WCW and he made me an offer
to come work there for money good enough that I had to seriously consider it.
As it turned out, Flair was unable to back up his offer and the deal
fell through when he nervously reneged. I lost respect for him and his word and
smartly chose to stay put in the WWF instead.
Eventually, Flair showed up in the WWF with the WCW belt and I was
somewhat surprised when he shamelessly crapped all over the history of the
territory that made him by not giving them their belt back. To this day I don’t
know what would make him hurt his fellow wrestlers and their struggling company
like that. I admit I don’t know all the facts on this so I won’t comment
any further about it, and Ric should have done the same with me.
Flair was trumpeted into the WWF with great fan fare and at last, one
night in New Haven, I was thrilled to defend the IC belt against this great
legend in an unscheduled dark match that was taped for Coliseum video. I knew
more about ring psychology and real wrestling at the ripe age of nine than Ric
Flair knew in his entire lifetime yet out of respect I let him lead the match.
Ric suggested a finish that called for me to do a flying cross body where he
would subsequently catch me and stagger backwards with the two of us toppling
over the top rope only to be counted out for the finish. It was a simple but
risky move that I’d done countless times before with lesser wrestlers but at
the end of the match when I dove into Flair he stood too far from the ropes,
mistimed it , and he simply didn’t have the strength to catch me so we fell
down in an embarrassing heap. Ric suddenly came up with a new make shift finish
that, not surprisingly, benefited him and not me. It absolutely stunk but
these things sometimes tend to happen when two wrestlers work together for
the very first time. Although the match had been taped and can still be seen
today I wasn’t going to make any kind of a big deal about it, but back in
the dressing room I was annoyed to hear Flair painting out to everybody that
somehow I had messed up the finish, implying that I was still a young up and
comer. If you understand wrestling, you know that all I could do was dive
into his arms and the rest was up to him. He proved to me, right then, that he
was full of it and was no legend at all.
Ric was an old fox that took such liberties every time he thought he
could get away with it. You’ll find nary a wrestler that would describe me,
Savage or Foley as back stabbers or sneaky liberty takers, but with Flair you
better take a number!
I remember Flair worked with Randy Savage who, like me, was lead to
believe the same crap about how great Flair was when they had a Saturday
Night’s Main Event TV match in Hershey on September 1, 1992. He somehow
became WWF champion and Vince McMahon carefully constructed an elaborate storyline
for this very important match. I was standing right next to Vince watching
the match live on a backstage monitor when Vince blew his stack as he watched
Ric do absolutely nothing he told him to do. Ric has never been able to do
anything but his one routine match, which consists of cartoon high spots
borrowed from Jackie Fargo and midget wrestlers, along with an assortment of tired
old ripped off Buddy Rogers high spots. My dad always called Flair a
“routine man” - because he did the exact same routine every night, every where,
and was forever stuck with it. An angry Vince met Flair as he came through the
curtain and he furiously ordered both Flair and an exasperated Randy to march
right back out and redo the entire match the way he’d told them to do it!
Even then, as I remember it, Flair was still unable to impress Vince.
Personally, I would have been shamed with embarrassment to ever put the promotion,
myself, or my opponent through such a farce! I recall telling Randy that I
thought Flair was ‘thirty minutes of non stop non psychology’ and Randy
shook his head and laughed along with me at how true it was.
I can tell you first hand that Ric Flair was not a great worker at
all. Yes, he did hilarious interviews but, to my taste, I never thought a
world champion was supposed to be hilariously amusing. Granted, Flair was
entertaining to watch - and there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, much like
Hogan, Flair’s magnetism and charisma distracted from and offset his limited
ability in the ring. The single greatest contribution that Flair ever gave to
pro wrestling was the wooo from his silly chops. First off, chops hurt - and in
my opinion they look like crap.
For Flair to demean Randy Savage and Mick Foley is outrageous! In my
opinion, as someone who has worked with all three of them (and everybody else
from that era too) Ric Flair couldn't even lace up Randy and Mick’s boots!
They were both hard workers and exciting innovators who at least made every
possible effort to put on some kind of a different show from night to night.
Either one of them could call a great match any time they wanted. So what if
Randy wanted to put in an even greater effort by designing a great match in
excessive detail? That is a quality, not a flaw, and Flair is too lost in time
to grasp it. Sure Flair could call a match, the exact same one over and over,
talking and telegraphing every move! I can also say that Ric was a blatant
expose every time he cut himself. “Hey look, Ric Flair’s blading! ...”
Some great pro! If old time shooters like Ed Strangler Lewis or Frank Gotch
were to look down from the heavens I’m sure they’d be more impressed with Randy
and Mick’s realism and psychology than Flair’s phony chops and upside-down
flips into the corner, where amazingly he somehow landed right on his feet! -
only to jog down to the next corner - where he climbed right up and - even
more amazingly - took ten or fifteen seconds to maneuver his opponent’s hands
carefully onto his chest so he could take a phony beal back into the ring!
If done on rare occasions, such silly routines, because they are highly
amusing and entertaining, often go undetected for how ridiculously phony they are.
But this pathetic routine was performed every time Flair went blank, and let
me tell you, he went blank all the time!
As for Ric’s criticism of how my comeback was repetitive, all I can
say is that I felt that, logically speaking, why wouldn’t I break into my
patented arsenal of best moves before going into my finish? I did, in fact, change
it up from time to time, but I also recognized that most fans completely
understood what I was doing. It made as much sense as doing the same finishing
move every night, except my finish was a series of moves. The fact that Ric
took exception to this is a simple example of his inability to fully understand ri
ng psychology.
The day after I wrestled Davey at Wembley at Summerslam ‘92 in front
of 86,000 fans I flew to Baltimore. They were playing a tape of the show in
the hotel bar and I was watching a tape in my room when there was a knock at my
door and low and behold both Randy and Flair stood there beaming. They each
shook my hand and I remember Flair excitedly grinning and praising me saying,
“Brother, that was the greatest match I’ve ever seen. The greatest!”
For Ric Flair to say that I wasn’t a draw is just plain ridiculous. I’m
very sure that I sold enough tickets throughout my career. Who is he kidding?
Everyone knows that most of the time WCW wrestlers worked in front of empty
chairs in empty arenas. All one has to do is watch Flair’s DVD to see the
empty seats and the exact same match with every opponent, whatever their shape or
size. After Vince made him redo his SNME match his days were numbered in
the WWF because he clearly wasn’t what he was cracked up to be. Six weeks
later Flair was told to lose the belt to me in Saskatoon on October 12, 1992. As
I understood it, Flair declined putting me over on TV, despite the fact
that he himself had just told me that Wembley was the best match he’d ever
seen ! Let alone that I was the biggest draw the WWF had in Europe and all the
foreign markets, consistently main eventing in front of, not sold out
buildings, but entirely sold out tours! And I had a very strong following in
North America too. The WWF was reeling from sex and steroid scandals at that
time and I was seen as a safe bet to carry the belt, in large part, because I
worked hard and I kept my nose clean. When I won the title in Saskatoon that
night I came back to the dressing room with a dislocated finger and a rolled
ankle, both as a result of Ric failing to tell me what he was doing in the
ring. (I generally never got hurt.)
I worked with Flair every night for a while after that and I finally
went to Vince totally exasperated and told him that I thought that Ric was
intentionally sabotaging my matches every night since I’d won the belt. To be
honest, Ric always worked hard but nothing he did in the ring ever made sense.
Just when he’d masterfully worked my leg he’d suddenly grab a headlock and
call a long series of running high spots! Just when we had the crowd ready to
burst he’d call some lame spot that would kill all the heat we’d built up and I
forever found myself shaking my head at how we’d have to build it up all over
again. Most of what Ric called made him look like a world beater and in some
matches I’d blast him with fifteen or twenty terrific looking working punches
only to see him never go down but then finally wobble and take one of his
pathetic and comedic face bumps. Sometimes he’d do his upside-down flip into
the corner two or three times in a row and in one match, only days after I won
the title, he called for a small package out of a figure four and pinned
himself without even giving me a comeback! When I finally went to Vince he scolded
me and told me that I was his champion and from here on in to take charge of
my matches - and that Flair wasn’t as good as he was cracked up to be! I was
trying to respect Ric at the time but since he was heading back to WCW I
had no choice but to take control. Ric apologized to me saying he was having
problems at home but today he’s telling some bullshit story about Charles
Barkley and the Ultimate Warrior.
A few months later, when I found out I’d be having a one hour marathon
match at the Boston Garden with Ric, I came up with a brilliant storyline
that I ran by Vince, who loved it. When I ran it by Flair in the dressing room
the night of the show he immediately interrupted me and began telling me what
we were going to do instead. I finally had to cut him off and sadly dress him
down in front of several wrestlers saying, “Ric, I’m the champion and this is
how it’s going to go.” He dropped his jaw, turned red, and took his seat,
saying, “You’re the champ.” He never, ever got over it either. Scott Hall was
there and often told this story to other wrestlers for years. Sadly, old Ric
still managed to mess up the timing for every fall, in what I could only see
as intentional. At the time I was furious to read in Dave Meltzer’s
Wrestling Observer Newsletter how Ric Flair carried me for the full sixty minutes!
Ric Flair never carried me, ever! Years later I spoke with Meltzer about
it and we cleared the air when after hearing my perspective on it he agreed
that he didn’t have all the facts and told me that he’d never seen the Boson
match, which was reported to him by a fan who was there. If anything, Flair was
not only notorious for sucking up to the office but generally took liberties
with his opponents who had been convinced that he was going to make them. If
you watch Flair’s matches you’ll see that he usually made himself at the
expense of his opponents , something I was famous for not doing.
Enough about this so called great worker. He was a three dressed up as
a nine who left his opponents second guessing their own abilities after
working with him.
For shame that Ric Flair should take pot shots at Terry Funk, Mick
Foley, Savage, me or anyone else. But none of this is what infuriates me the
most.
For Flair to denounce me for my role in the infamous Survivor Series
in Montreal, all I can say is that he wasn’t there and he ignores much of
the truth when it comes to the facts. The most complete and accurate written
account of the whole Montreal debacle, for anyone who is interested, is
available at brethart.com - written by Dave Meltzer. I stand proud with my head
held high for the way I handled myself and the position I took for the business
and my fellow wrestlers that fateful day. I find solace in remembering two
truly great champions, Harley Race and Dory Funk, who did call me up to tell
me they were proud of me for how I handled myself in Montreal. That’s all the
endorsement I’ll ever need! That’s all I need to say about it.
Far above and beyond anything else Flair said, it is his comment about
how I exploited my loving brother Owen’s death that is unforgivable.
Frankly, this is such a low class blow that it is even beneath him! If he wants to
take pot shots at me as a wrestler that’s bad enough, but it is reprehensible
that he would judge me for the way I handled myself in the aftermath of my
brother’s death. All I can say is that I stood by Owen’s widow through a
fierce and bitter time, never once failing her or their children. I did what I
think Owen would have wanted me to do and I answer to Owen’s memory not to
Ric Flair. For him to say that I fueled the law suit because of Montreal
is ridiculous and disgusting.
I think it’s fair to say one had to walk in my shoes to fully comprehend the
situation and when I put my story into words in a book about wrestling that
is worth reading only then can anyone appreciate all that I lost and all
that I gave during such a difficult time. For this asshole to blindly poke me
in the eye would be like me declaring that Flair showed great cowardice when
he let Bobby Shane die in that tragic plane crash back in ‘75 !
Foley , Savage and Bret Hart have been doing just fine outside of the
world of wrestling. What else has Ric Flair got? I’d like to punch Ric Flair
right in the nose - but I’d probably have to kick somebody in the ass to do
it! In the infamous words of Dick Cheney, go f**k yourself Ric and be glad
that someone like me doesn’t shove your head squarely up your ass someday.

[Trauma-san]

Hulk Hogan has never injured or hurt a wrestler either, Bret.  There's one.

[Trauma-san]

Also, Bret, Flair showed up in WWF with the WCW belt because he owned the WCW belt.  The belt was worth a lot of money, and in those days, Flair had paid a bond to have possesion of the belt, when he left WCW they didn't give him his bonded money back, so he kept the belt.  That is why he would show up in WWF with the WCW belt, he actually owned it. 

[Shallow]

Hulk Hogan has never injured or hurt a wrestler either, Bret.  There's one.

Actually Hogan famously injured Antonio Inoki once. But anyway, I'm sure if you look deeply at anyone's career you'll find that someone got hurt or injured while wrestling against that person. It's just the way the businesss is.


As for Bret's rant. I remember when he wrote this a year ago and I remember all the other rants he had in his column starting in '93. I like Bret but the guy is a little nuts. Flair was just taking some jabs back at Bret but he did it in a civil way. Bret ranted on with threats and such. Bret called Flair a 3 out of 10 wrestler. Flair just said Bret is amazing but judging form wrestling both he feels HBK is better. Bret said he wanted to punch Flair in the nose, Flair just said it appeared to him that Bret used the Owen death as another way to hate McMahon. The fact is Bret did talk about Montreal '97 in newspaper interview the day after Owen's death. Bret said Flair has no psychology and isn't fit to lace Macho Man's boots, all Flair said was that Bret was stubborn when it came to the order he did his moves in. Stan Lane, who wrestled both, said Ric Flair is like Rocky while Bret is like Tommy Gunn. And Bret Hart once said about Flair "he's so good he's not even human". Like I said, Bret'sa little nuts. Did you know his basement is one big Bret Hart Museum? His walls are covered with wrestling magazine covers of him, his belts are mounted on the wall. Every promotional picture he's ever done is up too. I won't be surprised if he starts charging admission soon.