Can we agree that "The Chronic" had a NEGATIVE impact on hip-hop & black youth?

[Eihtball]

This is something I've talked about with other people I know before, but I figured maybe we should talk about this, since we are DubCNN, after all.

Don't get me wrong...I first heard "The Chronic" back in '93 and it's one of my favorite albums of all time, but I think it really had a negative impact on hip-hop culture and black youth for a bunch of reasons:

(1.) It is THE album that made "gangsta" rap into a form of pop music.  Before "The Chronic" came out, artists like Ice Cube, Ice-T, and the Geto Boys were quite popular and could sell lots of records, but their followings consisted almost entirely of hardcore hip-hop heads (and some white kids), and major labels were still hesitant to put out gangsta records because they were considered unmarketable (they couldn't get radio play, BET wouldn't play the videos, conservative watchdog groups would give them shit, etc.)  "The Chronic" pretty much allowed gangsta rap to become a genre of pop that mainstream audiences would embrace, and it was so popular that even the people who didn't want to play Dre's singles had no choice (if they wanted to keep their daytime audiences).

(2.) Building on the above, "The Chronic" pretty much watered down gangsta rap by substracting all of the socio-political sentiments that N.W.A. and Ice Cube and previous groups had shown - no more stuff about police brutality, no more anger at Uncle Sam, no attempts to show both the ups and downs of gang life, etc.  Yeah, it had "The Day The Niggaz Took Over", but basically, the whole album was all about getting high, fucking, dipping around corners, shit like that.  After that, "gangsta" went from being an offshoot of hardcore rap to being an offshoot of pop-rap (because let's face it - "The Chronic" is a party album).  Every rapper that came out after "The Chronic" treated gangsta life the same way - like it was all fun and games.  The days of songs like "Fuck The Police" and "Colors" were over.

(3.) It was after "The Chronic" came out that the association of hip-hop with the hedonistic gangsta lifestyle started - almost every new rapper that came out tried to claim they were a thug, a pimp, a hustler, whatever.  And of course, they had to adopt the gangsta vocab to sound credible - lots of cursing, the use of the word "nigga", references to blunts and firearms, all that shit.  The days when De La Soul, Das EFX, and Arrested Development could cross over with a positive message in their music were basically done and gone - "gangsta" and "hip-hop" became interchangable terms in the public eye.  I remember how back then, you'd hear a lot of people who might say they hated "gangsta" rap but they were OK with "other" rap - "The Chronic" marked the point where detractors stopped making that distinction and would say, "I hate RAP, period."  Ignorant as it sounds, it's easy to understand where they're coming from.

(4.) So basically, even though N.W.A. and other early groups first introduced audiences to gangsta chic, the fact that they were underground, not mainstream sensations, limited their exposure - N.W.A. lit the match, but Dre poured out a tank of gasoline and then tossed the match into it.

So those are my thoughts.

[Bigg $amo]

nah i think "2001" had a more negative impact cuz it showed that if you keep the same formula over & over again, you will succeed. it also made gangsta rap even more acceptable in pop culture imo.

[wcsoldier]

nah i think "2001" had a more negative impact cuz it showed that if you keep the same formula over & over again, you will succeed. it also made gangsta rap even more acceptable in pop culture imo.

the same formula ? I assume you talk about the lyrics. 2001 is far from being the 1st album to show that. Plus the sound was ahead his time  and nothing heard before. Plus if you talk about negative impact, I'm gonna say Bad Boy Records back in 98. Their watered crossover rap has been the beginning of the downfall of rap (with no limit too)

[Turf Hitta]

You make some very strong points, but I still have to disagree. i dont think it changed rap as much as it changed the rap that was accessible. There were still artists that spoke on the things that you said were missing in The Chronic, but the big companies were no longer looking to release that type of music as much.  It did introduce gangsta themes to a pop audience, but pop is pop regardless and will always be watered down regardless of the general themes it touches on.As a general rule I dont think the hardore and the realest shit ever gets to the public because thats not what they want. Pop audiences want feel good/party music, not tales of the downtrodden or disenfranchised. At first, the NWA's of the world were embraced, I think, mostly because white kids (save the hate mail white people, you know it at least partially true) enjoyed pissing their parents off.

 Where I think the negative impact came from, is when people who were not from the streets jumped on the bandwagon and started to interpret their own version of the "hood lifestyle" without ever even seeing it anywhere other than gangsta flicks like Boys N The Hood and New Jack City, thereby removing any credibility or realness from the music. Thats why people in the streets almost never embrace the shit thats on the radio or BET, etc.

 Like I said though, you make some strong arguments and you may be right, but I just disagree. Where I do agree with you though is it did create a bunch of fake ass bandwagoners who actually did have a negative impact, through no direct action of Dre, because while there may have been missing elements of the streets on The Chronic, at least everything was authentic. Thats just my pennies...

[nibs]

This is something I've talked about with other people I know before, but I figured maybe we should talk about this, since we are DubCNN, after all.

(2.) Building on the above, "The Chronic" pretty much watered down gangsta rap by substracting all of the socio-political sentiments that N.W.A. and Ice Cube and previous groups had shown - no more stuff about police brutality, no more anger at Uncle Sam, no attempts to show both the ups and downs of gang life, etc.

i wouldn't blame this on the chronic.  look at "efil4zaggin".  all the socio-political sentiments left n.w.a. when ice cube left n.w.a.  they went from "a bitch iz a bitch" and "i ain't the one", which, while not positive represented a level  of playful struggly between men and women; to "to kill a hooker" and "one less bitch" where they are attempting to rape and kill women.  

gangsta, gangsta
then we headed, back to the fort
sweatin' all the bitches in the biker shorts
we didn't get no play, from the ladies
with six niggaz in the car, are you crazy
she was scared, and it was showing
we all said "fuck you bitch" and kept going

compare that to "to kill a hooker", where the bitch they try to holla at turns out to be a hooker, and they decide to kidnap her and kill her.  no more "fuck you bitch" and riding off.

firing indiscriminately into crowds in "protest".  consciously, "the chronic" is a significant step up from "efil4zaggin".  

"The Chronic" marked the point where detractors stopped making that distinction and would say, "I hate RAP, period."  Ignorant as it sounds, it's easy to understand where they're coming from.

fuck the detractors.  seriously, why bother worrying about what the distractors say?  who are these detractors that their opinion matters anyway?  

and you forget, "the chronic" marked the shift where hip hop moved towards being the top selling genre of music atleast in america.  hip hop now defines everything that is hip and popular.  hip hop is exploited by all sorts of huge corporations for advertising and marketting.  "the chronic" paved the way for all of that.  if anything it only shows the hypocrisy of the culture and the detractors as a whole.  you look at a guy like eminem and you realize that "the detractors" simply wanted a guy rhyming about cornball shit like trailer parks and mushrooms to bring them to the table.  

i don't think you've fully touched on your point.  "the chronic" paved the way for guys like jay-z to be part owners of the nets.   building office/business/shopping complexes in brooklyn and moving the team to brooklyn.  that's insanely good.  mind boggling.  jay-z is a guy that rhymes about being an ex crack dealer.   you have a guy like 50, a guy that i don't pay that much attention to, but a guy that seems to be doing alot.

"the chronic" opened the door to a lot of great things for hip-hop.  expanded the amount of money hip-hop generated and the artists as well in some cases.  we all know who makes the billions vs the millions.  and the millions vs the thousands.

the only argument you have, that i see, is that gangsta shit has had a detrimental effect on black culture, black communities, and black consciousness.  that is something i feel you didn't fully touch on.

[makaveli11]

You make some very strong points, but I still have to disagree. i dont think it changed rap as much as it changed the rap that was accessible. There were still artists that spoke on the things that you said were missing in The Chronic, but the big companies were no longer looking to release that type of music as much.  It did introduce gangsta themes to a pop audience, but pop is pop regardless and will always be watered down regardless of the general themes it touches on.As a general rule I dont think the hardore and the realest shit ever gets to the public because thats not what they want. Pop audiences want feel good/party music, not tales of the downtrodden or disenfranchised. At first, the NWA's of the world were embraced, I think, mostly because white kids (save the hate mail white people, you know it at least partially true) enjoyed pissing their parents off.

 Where I think the negative impact came from, is when people who were not from the streets jumped on the bandwagon and started to interpret their own version of the "hood lifestyle" without ever even seeing it anywhere other than gangsta flicks like Boys N The Hood and New Jack City, thereby removing any credibility or realness from the music. Thats why people in the streets almost never embrace the shit thats on the radio or BET, etc.

 Like I said though, you make some strong arguments and you may be right, but I just disagree. Where I do agree with you though is it did create a bunch of fake ass bandwagoners who actually did have a negative impact, through no direct action of Dre, because while there may have been missing elements of the streets on The Chronic, at least everything was authentic. Thats just my pennies...

^co-sign. Also I would blame today hiphop mostly on badboy in 1998 and No limit. That is when that bullshit bling bling era began to really take over.

[Bigg $amo]

nah i think "2001" had a more negative impact cuz it showed that if you keep the same formula over & over again, you will succeed. it also made gangsta rap even more acceptable in pop culture imo.

the same formula ? I assume you talk about the lyrics.

well of course, beats dont really influence people..lol

[Eihtball]

You people who are bringing Bad Boy and No Limit into this are missing the point.  Those labels may have been bad because they were exploitative and put out product that was devoid of creativity, but when I talk about "The Chronic", I'm talking about the gangsta thang conquering all, the death of positivity in hip-hop.  That's not just bad for the culture, that's bad for black youth as well.  Bad Boy and No Limit made terrible music, but that's a bit of a different story.  That's superficial compared to what "The Chronic" did.

[Eihtball]

You make some very strong points, but I still have to disagree. i dont think it changed rap as much as it changed the rap that was accessible. There were still artists that spoke on the things that you said were missing in The Chronic, but the big companies were no longer looking to release that type of music as much.  It did introduce gangsta themes to a pop audience, but pop is pop regardless and will always be watered down regardless of the general themes it touches on.As a general rule I dont think the hardore and the realest shit ever gets to the public because thats not what they want. Pop audiences want feel good/party music, not tales of the downtrodden or disenfranchised. At first, the NWA's of the world were embraced, I think, mostly because white kids (save the hate mail white people, you know it at least partially true) enjoyed pissing their parents off.

 Where I think the negative impact came from, is when people who were not from the streets jumped on the bandwagon and started to interpret their own version of the "hood lifestyle" without ever even seeing it anywhere other than gangsta flicks like Boys N The Hood and New Jack City, thereby removing any credibility or realness from the music. Thats why people in the streets almost never embrace the shit thats on the radio or BET, etc.

 Like I said though, you make some strong arguments and you may be right, but I just disagree. Where I do agree with you though is it did create a bunch of fake ass bandwagoners who actually did have a negative impact, through no direct action of Dre, because while there may have been missing elements of the streets on The Chronic, at least everything was authentic. Thats just my pennies...

The fact that "The Chronic" was "authentic" doesn't matter to me...I long ago stopped caring what's "real" and what's not.  What matters is that it presented gangsta rap in a way that was packaged and adapted to mainstream tastes, and it made clear to other rappers that if they too talked about blunts, ho's, and guns, they could cross over, too.  Yeah, pop is always watered-down, but the fact is, "The Chronic" is basically the album that did it first with gangsta rap (well, maybe you could argue that other groups had some effect, but since they weren't nearly as popular, the effect on the culture was minimal).

[Turf Hitta]

^^^Well would you also say the same about artists like Curtis Mayfield who built their careers around the same exact themes?

[dexter]

NO

[Eihtball]

i wouldn't blame this on the chronic.  look at "efil4zaggin".  all the socio-political sentiments left n.w.a. when ice cube left n.w.a.  they went from "a bitch iz a bitch" and "i ain't the one", which, while not positive represented a level  of playful struggly between men and women; to "to kill a hooker" and "one less bitch" where they are attempting to rape and kill women.

Yeah, but as I've said before, that's not my only beef.  "Efil4Zaggin" may have been less socio-political than "Straight Outta Compton", but the fact is, N.W.A. never really crossed over with that album.  Yeah, it hit #1 on the charts, but its impact upon hip-hop was negligible (if any) - Native Tongues and Heavy D and shit like that was still popular.  It was only after "The Chronic" that we started seeing the onslaught of gangstaism and the end of positivity.  That's my big beef with "The Chronic".

fuck the detractors.  seriously, why bother worrying about what the distractors say?  who are these detractors that their opinion matters anyway?

I don't agree with them entirely, but that doesn't mean they don't make SOME valid points.  Whether we want to accept it or not, gangsta rap is having a negative impact upon black youth right now, and it's understandable that they would be upset over that. 

and you forget, "the chronic" marked the shift where hip hop moved towards being the top selling genre of music atleast in america.  hip hop now defines everything that is hip and popular.  hip hop is exploited by all sorts of huge corporations for advertising and marketting.  "the chronic" paved the way for all of that.  if anything it only shows the hypocrisy of the culture and the detractors as a whole.  you look at a guy like eminem and you realize that "the detractors" simply wanted a guy rhyming about cornball shit like trailer parks and mushrooms to bring them to the table.  

i don't think you've fully touched on your point.  "the chronic" paved the way for guys like jay-z to be part owners of the nets.   building office/business/shopping complexes in brooklyn and moving the team to brooklyn.  that's insanely good.  mind boggling.  jay-z is a guy that rhymes about being an ex crack dealer.   you have a guy like 50, a guy that i don't pay that much attention to, but a guy that seems to be doing alot.

"the chronic" opened the door to a lot of great things for hip-hop.  expanded the amount of money hip-hop generated and the artists as well in some cases.  we all know who makes the billions vs the millions.  and the millions vs the thousands.

the only argument you have, that i see, is that gangsta shit has had a detrimental effect on black culture, black communities, and black consciousness.  that is something i feel you didn't fully touch on.

I'm not saying there was no positivity, but I think "The Chronic"'s overall impact was negative.  The fact that hip-hop became the top-selling genre of music in America (largely because of "The Chronic") is NOT a good thing, IMO.  Almost anything and everything that's ever been wrong with the culture has been fucked up with that exact reason - and almost always, you can trace it back to the "The Chronic".

[Eihtball]

^^^Well would you also say the same about artists like Curtis Mayfield who built their careers around the same exact themes?

Huh?  Ambiguous statement.  Please get that straight.

[Turf Hitta]

What I mean is that these topics have been prevalent long before Dre, and Dre grew up on the Curtis Mayfields of his era, so if Dre indirectly had a negative impact like you say, then wouldnt Curtis mayfield also been indirectly responsible for these same problems?

[Eihtball]

What I mean is that these topics have been prevalent long before Dre, and Dre grew up on the Curtis Mayfields of his era, so if Dre indirectly had a negative impact like you say, then wouldnt Curtis mayfield also been indirectly responsible for these same problems?

Yeah, but you can't say Curtis Mayfield made it "hip" or "cool" to be thuggish in the mainstream.  Not to mention words like "nigga" and "muthafucka".  There's a difference between selling lots of records and having an impact upon society and an entire genre of music.