95% Of The Time School Is Unnecessary

[Mo Z. Dizzle]

i might hafta take stupid calculus if i want to go from college to a better university than the one im able to get into.

calc isn't even business related, i took another math course that was business related.

so friggin annoying; i hope i can pass it, last time i was gettin a 40% before i dropped it.

[DipsetGeneral]

school is a failing system. quarter of the kids learn bout illegitimate shit they can do  n usually end up most likely in jail n the lucky smart ones become the big dope dealers n mob heads.

no disrespect, but fuck that was stupid

[Nutty]

I use math on the daily...

I was getting low-ish math grades throughout school.. then i started on a computer course.. i had to retake the same maths test again that year.. i skipped these extra lessons for the whole year bar a bunch at the beginning and end.. so basically about 15 lessons.. and i passed it.. just coz i'd learned how to look at things right through other experiences..

IMO its not enough to teach someone something.. they have to know WHY. a twist on the old "teach a man to fish" thing

teaching a man to teach himself is one of the best skills you can do. my job today everything I do is self taught, and i'm learning daily.. and i've learned to find the information I need to get my job done.

i found that through my experiences that teaching style helps a great deal

95%? I don't think so.

Just because you guys don't use adavance level math and sciences doesn't mean they aren't useful. They drive our technological industries. If Math and Science weren't taught in school then none of you would be on your PCs even posting these messages. Sure you can learn on your own, and I agree with Sik that theorhetically a person can take a high school level degree and enter most jobs by learning what they need to independantally rather than through College, but you can neve take away what direct competition can do for your learning as well peer study. You can learn a lot more by trying to one up your classmates or catch up and by working with them. Even outside of the school system is a lot easier to learn with a teacher of some sort than just by reading.


Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.

[jeromechickenbone]

I'll break it down pretty simple, and I have some perspective cuz I graduated from college 3 years ago.  A piece of paper that says Diploma doesn't annoint someone a genius.  It doesn't mean any one person is more intelligent than any other.  Some of the most witty, intelligent people I've known barely graduated high school and never set foot in college.

But here's what I realized what school teaches you, ESPECIALLY higher education (college) - responsibility.  When I was a freshman and I lived in a dorm, there was 52 other dudes on my floor.  We were all 18 years old and living hundreds of miles away from home.  Shit was the funnest time I ever had in my life.  At ANY given time some cats were drinkin, smokin, playing video games, hookin up, blah blah blah.  The catch to all this fun was that you had to not only go to class without mommy telling you to, but you had to walk away from all of the fun everybody was having because you had to study if you wanted to stay there.  After that 1st semester, some dudes on my floor weren't making grades, flunked out and left.  Now make no mistake, I was out all night having the time of my life, but the catch was I was one of the few that would stay out getting fucked up and still make it to class at 8 in the morning.

Out of everybody on my floor, I only knew 3 of them that had graduated along with me.  I wasn't smarter than all those dudes, I just made sure I handled my business.  And thats what school teaches you - it's that no matter what you do, you gotta take care of business.  If you're all play and no work, you're likely not going to do much with yourself.  I didn't enjoy the vast majority of classes I took, most professors were arrogant assholes, and I retained VERY LITTLE of what I learned.  That's how its set up - 6 weeks of memorization, regurgitating that info and then repeating the cycle again.  But I hung in there and got my 120 credit hours and it was both the most fun and rewarding thing I ever did. 

[Shallow]

Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.

Read my opening thread again man.  I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".

And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing.  So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor.  But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.

Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.

As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.

Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?

[AndrE16686]

Very true. Especially the higher you go in education. You realize how much of it is beaurocratic BS.

yeah know whatchu mean, 3 years into my degree now and i find all you need is yourself and a book, tutorials and lectures just turn into nap times...

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.

Read my opening thread again man.  I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".

And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing.  So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor.  But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.

Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.

As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.

Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?

Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written.  I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.

As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for.  So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.

[J Bananas]

Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.

Read my opening thread again man.  I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".

And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing.  So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor.  But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.

Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.

As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.

Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?

Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written.  I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.

As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for.  So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.

bryan these are almost cult like tactics you're using during the debate club, what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Shallow]

Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.

Read my opening thread again man.  I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".

And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing.  So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor.  But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.

Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.

As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.

Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?

Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written.  I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.

As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for.  So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.

You're not seeing my point. I'm talking about a massive amount of students. There are tens of thousands of kids that need to learn something like Integral Calculus and there aren't tens of thousands credible tutors, much less ones with out degrees. You are thinking in individually. YOU could learn Calculus by hiring a tutor. YOU could learn to be a better doctor by 4 years of living with, working with, and studying a doctor rather than 8 years of pre-med and med school. Society could not function like that. Order needs to be set up for the best possible results. I could learn more about Islam by independant study than a large percentage of Muslims but I understand that with out the organizations of the mosques that Islam simply would not reach and maintain the numbers it has reached and maintained over the years. If there never were mosques and Islam relied solely on the individuals desire to pursue knowledge of Islam it would be a religion that consists of only a fraction of the people it has now. The same goes for the Church or the Synagogue.

[Don Seer]

he's also missing a point... just because you read something in a book 1) doesn not make it right (they can have mistakes) and 2) tests + exams exist to correct you.. people do mislearn things and misunderstand the things they learn

[Machiavelli]

yeah but if you want to be successful you need passion and courosity more then IQ....

CQ+PQ>IQ

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

You're not seeing my point. I'm talking about a massive amount of students. There are tens of thousands of kids that need to learn something like Integral Calculus and there aren't tens of thousands credible tutors, much less ones with out degrees. You are thinking in individually. YOU could learn Calculus by hiring a tutor. YOU could learn to be a better doctor by 4 years of living with, working with, and studying a doctor rather than 8 years of pre-med and med school. Society could not function like that. Order needs to be set up for the best possible results. I could learn more about Islam by independant study than a large percentage of Muslims but I understand that with out the organizations of the mosques that Islam simply would not reach and maintain the numbers it has reached and maintained over the years. If there never were mosques and Islam relied solely on the individuals desire to pursue knowledge of Islam it would be a religion that consists of only a fraction of the people it has now. The same goes for the Church or the Synagogue.

Yet again, I'd have to ask you to re-read my previous posts.   Look at the thread title, it says "95% of the time School Is Unnecessary".  Yet, you are arguing over the usefullness of religious institutions such as the mosque, which are two totally different subjects.

I'm talking about futility of schools, and you took the giant leap of suggesting I was talking about the futility of the mosque?  TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.  But since you brought up mosques, let me speak on it for a second so you don't get the wrong idea, I am 100% for the institution of the mosque.

As for the mosque and "organized religion"..........

It's like Imam Jamil Al Amin says, we have to understand that ignorance is organized. It is an organized force that impacts on the community as a whole. To dispel ignorance, then Allah calls on you to be an organized force. But, to be an organized force, Allah sets down certain rules as to how the organized force must work. The whole concept of leadership, respect and a sense of order, the whole nature of things, Allah taught to the Prophets, these are the things that work.

When believers come together for the making of the prayer, Allah begins to accentuate posotive things, likes and similiarities; and He begins to point out the unimportance of the negative things that keep them away from each other, the little attitudes, and the differences. Indeed, Allah swears, "by those who arrange themselves in ranks and who are therefore strong in repelling evil." By arranging ourselves in ranks Allah begins to synchronize the hearts of the believers.

Evil is organized, you have billion dollar companies and marketing schemes aimed at you to spend your money on their products and live the lifestyle they desire you to live. So likewise, mankind has to be organized in repelling that evil, and Allah gives us a program that reminds us througout the day what our true purpose in life is.

So important is community, and "organized religion" that when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) migrated from Mekkah to Medina, the first thing he established was a mosque, to facilitate the congregational prayers (performed side by side 5 times daily in the mosque), so that social fiber would begin to take hold, and the hearts would be united in functioning on a socially conscious manner so that remembrance of Allah became the most important activity in their life.

Moreover, Allah gave worship to the Prophet as a tool whereby he could distinguish, even in the midst of his ranks, those who feared Allah , who had the awareness of Allah, from those who were thoughtless of their Lord. Prayer became a means by which he measured men.

[J Bananas]

if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane, if you are doubting my words, you may be going insane,

[Mr. O]

especially MATH!! FUCKIN A MAN! Ive avoided it in college as long as I can but I finally couldnt dodge it nemore.  Today was the first day of the semester   Math is so pointless though, I am never gonna use this stupid shit ever, fuck math

man...math is important like english.  If u pay the store 5 bucks for food, you'll give him 20 bucks because it's only money?

[Shallow]

You're not seeing my point. I'm talking about a massive amount of students. There are tens of thousands of kids that need to learn something like Integral Calculus and there aren't tens of thousands credible tutors, much less ones with out degrees. You are thinking in individually. YOU could learn Calculus by hiring a tutor. YOU could learn to be a better doctor by 4 years of living with, working with, and studying a doctor rather than 8 years of pre-med and med school. Society could not function like that. Order needs to be set up for the best possible results. I could learn more about Islam by independant study than a large percentage of Muslims but I understand that with out the organizations of the mosques that Islam simply would not reach and maintain the numbers it has reached and maintained over the years. If there never were mosques and Islam relied solely on the individuals desire to pursue knowledge of Islam it would be a religion that consists of only a fraction of the people it has now. The same goes for the Church or the Synagogue.

Yet again, I'd have to ask you to re-read my previous posts.   Look at the thread title, it says "95% of the time School Is Unnecessary".  Yet, you are arguing over the usefullness of religious institutions such as the mosque, which are two totally different subjects.

I'm talking about futility of schools, and you took the giant leap of suggesting I was talking about the futility of the mosque?  TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.  But since you brought up mosques, let me speak on it for a second so you don't get the wrong idea, I am 100% for the institution of the mosque.

As for the mosque and "organized religion"..........

It's like Imam Jamil Al Amin says, we have to understand that ignorance is organized. It is an organized force that impacts on the community as a whole. To dispel ignorance, then Allah calls on you to be an organized force. But, to be an organized force, Allah sets down certain rules as to how the organized force must work. The whole concept of leadership, respect and a sense of order, the whole nature of things, Allah taught to the Prophets, these are the things that work.

When believers come together for the making of the prayer, Allah begins to accentuate posotive things, likes and similiarities; and He begins to point out the unimportance of the negative things that keep them away from each other, the little attitudes, and the differences. Indeed, Allah swears, "by those who arrange themselves in ranks and who are therefore strong in repelling evil." By arranging ourselves in ranks Allah begins to synchronize the hearts of the believers.

Evil is organized, you have billion dollar companies and marketing schemes aimed at you to spend your money on their products and live the lifestyle they desire you to live. So likewise, mankind has to be organized in repelling that evil, and Allah gives us a program that reminds us througout the day what our true purpose in life is.

So important is community, and "organized religion" that when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) migrated from Mekkah to Medina, the first thing he established was a mosque, to facilitate the congregational prayers (performed side by side 5 times daily in the mosque), so that social fiber would begin to take hold, and the hearts would be united in functioning on a socially conscious manner so that remembrance of Allah became the most important activity in their life.

Moreover, Allah gave worship to the Prophet as a tool whereby he could distinguish, even in the midst of his ranks, those who feared Allah , who had the awareness of Allah, from those who were thoughtless of their Lord. Prayer became a means by which he measured men.

Thanks for the sermon but your missing the point.

Where did I assume you were talking about the futility of the Mosque?  I said the school systenm was effective and not futile, and I used the effectiveness of the organized Mosque to show what such organization does. With out this Islam would not be near as large. With out organized schooling societies that have it wouldn't be nearly as educated as they are. Post secondary may not be all that useful when it comes to learning and attaining knowledge in many subjects but everything up until grade 12 is very useful. The average College grad goes through 4 years of school at that level and that's 4 out of 16 years total. Not 95% at all. It's more like 25%, and let's say that 75% of post secondary is unnecessary that leaves us at about 30% of unnecessary education. I will not agree with your 95% and it was that number that I argued with to begin with. Trash organized education all you want but it is the only reason many countries are so much more educated than others. I only used the mosque example to help you see what I was trying to say.