Chris Cornell leaves Audioslave

[Shallow]

Rock has never been as focused as rap ever was, it's a more abstract form of music and more focused on the melody rather than the lyrics. don't talk shit, it's like when american people talk shit about soccer cuz they don't know shit about it

That's incorrect. The reason I put most my hip hop records away was because of how unfocused they were. They don't focus on lyrics, or subject matter, or poetry. They focus on ego. Hip Hop is, and always was, for the most part a bragging contest. Whether it was about the guns you have, gangster things you've done, the money you make, or rap skills you possess. When it's not bragging it's whining; about what is and isn't gangster, what is and isn't hip hop, what is and isn't fair. And worst of all it's done in such a childish manner. Nas's last record with regards to relevance in society was as terrible as all his others. He raps to the lowest common denominator. He leaves very little to the imagination. Everything is so literal. It's not art to be interpreted. It's second rate lessons to be learned, except the only thing I learned in the end was how much time I wasted listening to it all those years.

Some people need to be spoon fed lyrical content. They don't want to have to wonder about what the song is about. They want to know it right away because they can't be bothered with using their brain to figure it out. Sometimes it's a little more in your face in rock and sometimes it's very subtle. A song like "the River" can simply be a story of a young man being forced to marry his pregnant girlfriend and throw his youth away, but upon looking deeper it can just as much be about society turning their backs on the working class and the government doing little to make things right, thus leaving the common folk stranded in the ruts they were born in. It's about classism. And it doesn't need to come right out and say that in the lyrics like a Nas song would have. Nas couldn't even leave a song about a gun in the first person to the imagination. He actually had to come out and say "I'm a gun" in the song like we couldn't figure it out. That's what Nas thinks of his fans.

Cornell and Audio Slave were pretty relevant lately. Their first album in 2002 was just certified triple platinum, and the one that followed went platinum. You want a poltical song by Cornell? Here it is;



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dQHwGBImd_I" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/dQHwGBImd_I</a>

Not my favourite lyrical song by them but certainly relevant to the times.

I definitely agree with you that music doesn't have to be relevant to the time for people to wanna buy it.  I also agree with what you said about Rock not being as focused on lyrics (although I think the beats in hip-hop trump any of the background music in Rock).

Aren't they the same thing? The beats are more often than not just taken from old rock records. Read up a bit about the history of hip hop and you'll see something you already know but fail to admit; the orginal DJs had to spin rock records for the rappers because they were the only tracks with hard enough beats to rap over.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

btw, I think Rage Against the Machine sucks anyway.  But that's nothing against them, I can't think of one rock album I've ever liked.  There's been a song here and there, but even that is rare.

[everlast1986]

how do rock artists not focus on their lyrics as much as hip hop artists do?

[Tanjential]

btw, I think Rage Against the Machine sucks anyway.  But that's nothing against them, I can't think of one rock album I've ever liked.  There's been a song here and there, but even that is rare.

That's totally fine that you don't like rock but surely you understand as a non fan you're probably not in the position to make such sweeiping judgements as you just made. Honestly, there's good and bad of every genre...anything that's popular is gonna have lines of motherfuckers doing it. Music is popular, so there's lots of cats rockin and rappin. some are dope at rockin and rappin, some ain't. there's a dope rock group for every dope rapper you can name. and there's a whack rap group for every whack rock group you can name.

-T

[Narrator]

And then you say this...

btw, I think Rage Against the Machine sucks anyway.  But that's nothing against them, I can't think of one rock album I've ever liked.  There's been a song here and there, but even that is rare.

...validating what I said all along.  You dismiss them cause they're rock and more-or-less for that reason alone.

You'd be easier to take seriously if it wasn't fucking obvious you're a self-loathing cracker who wishes to dissociate himself as much as possible from anything "white".  You're pathetic, homie.  You really are.  And you wouldn't know real niggas if you talked to them.

Oh, yeah, and LOL at you criticizing Chris Cornell as a "Satan worshipper".  Aside from the fact that isn't true, you ignore some of the hip-hop with those kinds of values.  There's a rapper who raps about eating babies (Brotha Lynch Hung) and even Three-6 Mafia in their early days had lots of occult/Satan references in their lyrics...but of course, you got nothing to say about that, right?

That's incorrect. The reason I put most my hip hop records away was because of how unfocused they were. They don't focus on lyrics, or subject matter, or poetry. They focus on ego. Hip Hop is, and always was, for the most part a bragging contest. Whether it was about the guns you have, gangster things you've done, the money you make, or rap skills you possess. When it's not bragging it's whining; about what is and isn't gangster, what is and isn't hip hop, what is and isn't fair. And worst of all it's done in such a childish manner. Nas's last record with regards to relevance in society was as terrible as all his others. He raps to the lowest common denominator. He leaves very little to the imagination. Everything is so literal. It's not art to be interpreted. It's second rate lessons to be learned, except the only thing I learned in the end was how much time I wasted listening to it all those years.

And you, of course, are just as simple-minded as Infinite.  You also shouldn't be on here anymore if you have nothing useful to contribute about discussions to HIP-HOP.

Rock not whiny?  Not as ego-driven, sure, but whiny?  Very much so.

[Samoan Enforcer]

Rock music is still around?

lol @ bryan trying to get witty. we know you were rocking out to break stuff until that bad acid trip where you became scared of your own people haha

[Tanjential]

And then you say this...

btw, I think Rage Against the Machine sucks anyway.  But that's nothing against them, I can't think of one rock album I've ever liked.  There's been a song here and there, but even that is rare.

...validating what I said all along.  You dismiss them cause they're rock and more-or-less for that reason alone.

You'd be easier to take seriously if it wasn't fucking obvious you're a self-loathing cracker who wishes to dissociate himself as much as possible from anything "white".  You're pathetic, homie.  You really are.  And you wouldn't know real niggas if you talked to them.

Oh, yeah, and LOL at you criticizing Chris Cornell as a "Satan worshipper".  Aside from the fact that isn't true, you ignore some of the hip-hop with those kinds of values.  There's a rapper who raps about eating babies (Brotha Lynch Hung) and even Three-6 Mafia in their early days had lots of occult/Satan references in their lyrics...but of course, you got nothing to say about that, right?

That's incorrect. The reason I put most my hip hop records away was because of how unfocused they were. They don't focus on lyrics, or subject matter, or poetry. They focus on ego. Hip Hop is, and always was, for the most part a bragging contest. Whether it was about the guns you have, gangster things you've done, the money you make, or rap skills you possess. When it's not bragging it's whining; about what is and isn't gangster, what is and isn't hip hop, what is and isn't fair. And worst of all it's done in such a childish manner. Nas's last record with regards to relevance in society was as terrible as all his others. He raps to the lowest common denominator. He leaves very little to the imagination. Everything is so literal. It's not art to be interpreted. It's second rate lessons to be learned, except the only thing I learned in the end was how much time I wasted listening to it all those years.

And you, of course, are just as simple-minded as Infinite.  You also shouldn't be on here anymore if you have nothing useful to contribute about discussions to HIP-HOP.

Rock not whiny?  Not as ego-driven, sure, but whiny?  Very much so.

shallow spoke some truth on the pervasively repetitive braggadocio of hip hop.

-T

[Shallow]

And then you say this...

btw, I think Rage Against the Machine sucks anyway.  But that's nothing against them, I can't think of one rock album I've ever liked.  There's been a song here and there, but even that is rare.

...validating what I said all along.  You dismiss them cause they're rock and more-or-less for that reason alone.

You'd be easier to take seriously if it wasn't fucking obvious you're a self-loathing cracker who wishes to dissociate himself as much as possible from anything "white".  You're pathetic, homie.  You really are.  And you wouldn't know real niggas if you talked to them.

Oh, yeah, and LOL at you criticizing Chris Cornell as a "Satan worshipper".  Aside from the fact that isn't true, you ignore some of the hip-hop with those kinds of values.  There's a rapper who raps about eating babies (Brotha Lynch Hung) and even Three-6 Mafia in their early days had lots of occult/Satan references in their lyrics...but of course, you got nothing to say about that, right?

That's incorrect. The reason I put most my hip hop records away was because of how unfocused they were. They don't focus on lyrics, or subject matter, or poetry. They focus on ego. Hip Hop is, and always was, for the most part a bragging contest. Whether it was about the guns you have, gangster things you've done, the money you make, or rap skills you possess. When it's not bragging it's whining; about what is and isn't gangster, what is and isn't hip hop, what is and isn't fair. And worst of all it's done in such a childish manner. Nas's last record with regards to relevance in society was as terrible as all his others. He raps to the lowest common denominator. He leaves very little to the imagination. Everything is so literal. It's not art to be interpreted. It's second rate lessons to be learned, except the only thing I learned in the end was how much time I wasted listening to it all those years.

And you, of course, are just as simple-minded as Infinite.  You also shouldn't be on here anymore if you have nothing useful to contribute about discussions to HIP-HOP.

Rock not whiny?  Not as ego-driven, sure, but whiny?  Very much so.

What I do here and what Infinite does here is completely different. He waits for Rock threads to start and jumps in to criticize. I don't pollute the hip hop threads with negative remarks just to be an asshole and rile people up. I came here as a west coast hip hop fan years ago and over the course of time I began to experience other music and realized I didn't like hip hop all that much. I stick around the board mainly for the other threads. I spend most of my time trying to convince people Manning is better than Brady on NFL related threads and talk football in general. From time to time I pop in the TOT to add my two sense. And I check the outbound forum for threads about music I'm interested in. I was an Audio Slave and Soundgarden fan so I checked this thread out. While in it I saw something I disagreed with and explained why. Show me the last time I infiltrated a hip hop thread just to bash hip hop. This was a rock thread and for the record I thought my post had plenty to contribute about the discussion of hip hop.

I was comparing the best from each side. The bad rock like that emo crap is a joke to me. It's not the crappy rappers I was bashing, but the best rappers. Even the top calibre MCs are plaged with ego driven gloat-fests and pretentious drivel. And it's not that it's some of their songs, it's most of their better songs. I don't find a ratio like that in the top tier rock band lyricists. Many are egotistical assholes in life but I'm not trying to judge the calibre of person. I'm trying to judge the calibre of art.

[Narrator]

It's not the crappy rappers I was bashing, but the best rappers. Even the top calibre MCs are plaged with ego driven gloat-fests and pretentious drivel. And it's not that it's some of their songs, it's most of their better songs. I don't find a ratio like that in the top tier rock band lyricists. Many are egotistical assholes in life but I'm not trying to judge the calibre of person. I'm trying to judge the calibre of art.

Yeah, that's exactly the problem.  In other words, you are no longer needed here.  Subtract yourself out of the equation.  And yeah, you're just as simple-minded as Infinite.  You may not be as pathetic as him, but you're no less stupid.  Your entire argument rests upon some moral bullshit that's utterly irrelevent to judging quality of art.  Why does it matter if hip-hop is often ego-driven?  It's about the skills they demonstrate on the mic.  It's the simple.  If you don't like that anymore fine, but now you need to stop posting on here and get lost.

And there is a FAR higher ratio of whiny rock bands to whiny hip-hop bands.  I may not listen to rock as much as hip-hop and soul, but it's extremely obvious to me...how much rock deals with teenage angst and whines about how things are fucked up?  And really, what rock band has ever shown any more intelligent insight than something by say, PE?  I'm not just talking about emo-rock, either.  One of my favorite rock albums of all time, "Appetite for Destruction" by Guns N Roses, sure as hell doesn't contain anything that's some kinda rocket science.  So shut the fuck up and cease to talk bullshit.  And bitch be gone.

[Shallow]

It's not the crappy rappers I was bashing, but the best rappers. Even the top calibre MCs are plaged with ego driven gloat-fests and pretentious drivel. And it's not that it's some of their songs, it's most of their better songs. I don't find a ratio like that in the top tier rock band lyricists. Many are egotistical assholes in life but I'm not trying to judge the calibre of person. I'm trying to judge the calibre of art.

Yeah, that's exactly the problem.  In other words, you are no longer needed here.  Subtract yourself out of the equation.  And yeah, you're just as simple-minded as Infinite.  You may not be as pathetic as him, but you're no less stupid.  Your entire argument rests upon some moral bullshit that's utterly irrelevent to judging quality of art.  Why does it matter if hip-hop is often ego-driven?  It's about the skills they demonstrate on the mic.  It's the simple.  If you don't like that anymore fine, but now you need to stop posting on here and get lost.

And there is a FAR higher ratio of whiny rock bands to whiny hip-hop bands.  I may not listen to rock as much as hip-hop and soul, but it's extremely obvious to me...how much rock deals with teenage angst and whines about how things are fucked up?  And really, what rock band has ever shown any more intelligent insight than something by say, PE?  I'm not just talking about emo-rock, either.  One of my favorite rock albums of all time, "Appetite for Destruction" by Guns N Roses, sure as hell doesn't contain anything that's some kinda rocket science.  So shut the fuck up and cease to talk bullshit.  And bitch be gone.

Okay now you're taking an intelligent discussion and plaguing it with insults. You want to rant on me and take away from the discussion that's fine. I don't bash hip hop for the sake of bashing it. I give my reasons with what I think is wrong with it and I leave it at that. I have no reason to waste my time bashing you.

To respond to what you said I have to explain that the morality or morals of hip hop are not what I was harping over. When I say ego-driven I mean that the artist or rapper becomes more important than the art and that impacts the quality. When it's becomes more important that a rapper is "real" than whether his songs are good then it becomes a problem. If I found out tomorrow that Tupac was a closet pedophile who masturbated to pictures of young children, it would have no affect on what I thought about his art. Hip Hop has put the rapper before the rap for too long now.

I'm not talking about the current rock scene. I know very little about it. I don't listen to much new music. So I don't know what the current ratio of whiny bands to non whiny bands is but of the all time greats I don't hear much whining. Could you give me examples of Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Pearl Jam, The Rolling Stones, GnR, Metallica, etc where they have more literal complaint songs than not?

I love PE and have never slighted them. I said "most" not all when it comes to rappers from the beginning, but GnR is not the right band to compare them to, (eventhough there are quite a few songs that nicely tackle issues like the big city street life, drug addiction, terrible upbringings, and acid trips). Why don't you mention the mid 60s Dylan, early 70s Niel Young, or mid 70s to early 80s Springsteen? I'll put their top stuff over PE any day.

[Suffice]

how do rock artists not focus on their lyrics as much as hip hop artists do?

well, what i meant was they're not as literal as rap lyrics usually are. They're pretty abstract in a lot of cases. Shallow is right that hip hop lyrics are too literal at times, they leave nothing to imagination, but that's not always true either. I think there's no point in trying to diss either genre. There's good and bad in every genre. There's plenty of trash rock and god knows theres plenty of shit hip hop

[white Boy]

to me hip hop has gotten so boring, not in the sense of new hip hop, just listening to all hip hop in general. i get nothing from it. its not art. its not poetry. ok, sooome is, but for the most part its metaphors which nobody cares about ("like short sleeves, i bear arms") and like it was said before, its all literal. most rap songs are so random also, theres no central idea and if there is the rapper bounces to and from it into random lines about nothing related. as for rock, i think lyrics in rock are a big thing, and people are crazy to not think that. they are poetry and art. and most new bands do suck so basing rock on fall out boy and panic at the disco is stupid. on rage against the machine, i think they are great, musically and lyrically. they have so much power in their "message" its like they arent just saying something, they are hitting you in the head with a baseball bat made from their idea, or something like that. an example of the poetry and abstractness of rock and the politics of rage one of my fav songs by them is "killing in the name of", i mean the lyrics are pretty simple, but all the while what he is saying could be intrerpreted in so many ways.

[7even]

In my opinion, it is an extremely narcistic attitude and a very, very pretentious base for a statement to argue that something has greater calibre of art and is objectively of higher value when it comes to music. I, actually, feel like slapping such people.

Art is the outcome of a creative process. There's no hierarchy of value implied in it.

Music is as good as it is in reaching what it's supposed to be. Like, a song that is meant to be political, and fails miserably at it, sucks. A song that is supposed to make people laugh, but fails miserably at it, sucks. Yet, neither does a song have to make people laugh nor does it have to be political. Some people prefer funny songs, some political. That is completely subjective.

Ultimately, you can not call a song that excels in featuring great battle rhymes worse than a song that excels in touching people on an emotional level - because both songs are good at what they are supposed to be good at.


I also pity anyone who thinks he can be completely objective towards the whole wide spectre of music, let alone art.

[LyRiCaL_G]

Rock has never been as focused as rap ever was, it's a more abstract form of music and more focused on the melody rather than the lyrics. don't talk shit, it's like when american people talk shit about soccer cuz they don't know shit about it

That's incorrect. The reason I put most my hip hop records away was because of how unfocused they were. They don't focus on lyrics, or subject matter, or poetry. They focus on ego. Hip Hop is, and always was, for the most part a bragging contest. Whether it was about the guns you have, gangster things you've done, the money you make, or rap skills you possess. When it's not bragging it's whining; about what is and isn't gangster, what is and isn't hip hop, what is and isn't fair. And worst of all it's done in such a childish manner. Nas's last record with regards to relevance in society was as terrible as all his others. He raps to the lowest common denominator. He leaves very little to the imagination. Everything is so literal. It's not art to be interpreted. It's second rate lessons to be learned, except the only thing I learned in the end was how much time I wasted listening to it all those years.

Some people need to be spoon fed lyrical content. They don't want to have to wonder about what the song is about. They want to know it right away because they can't be bothered with using their brain to figure it out. Sometimes it's a little more in your face in rock and sometimes it's very subtle. A song like "the River" can simply be a story of a young man being forced to marry his pregnant girlfriend and throw his youth away, but upon looking deeper it can just as much be about society turning their backs on the working class and the government doing little to make things right, thus leaving the common folk stranded in the ruts they were born in. It's about classism. And it doesn't need to come right out and say that in the lyrics like a Nas song would have. Nas couldn't even leave a song about a gun in the first person to the imagination. He actually had to come out and say "I'm a gun" in the song like we couldn't figure it out. That's what Nas thinks of his fans.

Cornell and Audio Slave were pretty relevant lately. Their first album in 2002 was just certified triple platinum, and the one that followed went platinum. You want a poltical song by Cornell? Here it is;



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dQHwGBImd_I" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/dQHwGBImd_I</a>

Not my favourite lyrical song by them but certainly relevant to the times.

I definitely agree with you that music doesn't have to be relevant to the time for people to wanna buy it.  I also agree with what you said about Rock not being as focused on lyrics (although I think the beats in hip-hop trump any of the background music in Rock).

Aren't they the same thing? The beats are more often than not just taken from old rock records. Read up a bit about the history of hip hop and you'll see something you already know but fail to admit; the orginal DJs had to spin rock records for the rappers because they were the only tracks with hard enough beats to rap over.

you see you speaking some major bullshit there.....you saying all nas shit is garbageis like me saying all rock shit is bullshit white boy music that don't sound good....its wrong....nas is art whether you like it or not....fact is most people cannot do what nas can and same i am sure with what some of these rock cats are doing who are the better ones.....nas speaks on alot of shit, is hella relavant and poetic and portrays his shit in art....there aint no denying this.....i use to get the feeling that you are some pro white/anti black music cat who only likes eminem in hiphop...infact im sure no matter what you say about nas.....eminem is someone you like alot no matter what you will say....its evident by alot of posts you have spoken on eminem in the past....but no i will not be bringing them back up............

now nas is a great and his shit is art...and yes he has some steriotype shit going for him but he goes against the grain with alot of shit aswell....and im sure that alot of these rock cats who are considered great fit many rock steriotypes aswell but they have something which stands out form the rest....you coming in here speaking like hiphop aint shit....dissin nas yet keep a blind eye on other shit is funny....like other dude said, this is a hiphop forum,  why watse your time here if this place aint for you....and i know you aint a cat to come infest every topic with bullshit but you speaking right now, dissing one of hiphops finest probably mad cuz he dissed some white people.......

truth is music is music and art is art....nas is both....because he is a great....hiphop may be weak right now but its still got its gems

peace

[LyRiCaL_G]

In my opinion, it is an extremely narcistic attitude and a very, very pretentious base for a statement to argue that something has greater calibre of art and is objectively of higher value when it comes to music. I, actually, feel like slapping such people.

Art is the outcome of a creative process. There's no hierarchy of value implied in it.

Music is as good as it is in reaching what it's supposed to be. Like, a song that is meant to be political, and fails miserably at it, sucks. A song that is supposed to make people laugh, but fails miserably at it, sucks. Yet, neither does a song have to make people laugh nor does it have to be political. Some people prefer funny songs, some political. That is completely subjective.

Ultimately, you can not call a song that excels in featuring great battle rhymes worse than a song that excels in touching people on an emotional level - because both songs are good at what they are supposed to be good at.


I also pity anyone who thinks he can be completely objective towards the whole wide spectre of music, let alone art.

dope post