If NBA players got to vote for the MVP...

[Antonio_]

Look at the 92-93 year. Jordan led the bulls to the title. Had the most points per game and steals per game for the season and made 1st team all NBA. Jordan had a great season that year, yet, Barkley won the MVP and his team lost to Jordan's in the Finals. Barkley had a bigger impact on his team that season. It was only his first year with them and he brought them up to having the best record in the league. So, it's not always about individual performance.


But since there's talks about the Lakers having bad players around Kobe and all, check this out. Aside from Pippen, who did Jordan have on this team? Grant was good, but he wasn't a stellar player. I think around Jordan, all these guys, who may have just been decent to good players, became strong players who were able to step up when needed.

Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Horace Grant
B.J. Armstrong
Scott Williams
Stacey King     
Trent Tucker     
Bill Cartwright
Will Perdue 
John Paxson
Rodney McCray         
Corey Williams       
Darrell Walker       
Ed Nealy             
Joe Courtney         
Ricky Blanton         
Jo Jo English 

Not too many great names on that roster, but they won the title that year. So if Kobe is supposed to be that great, he would work with what he has and bring them to that point, IMO.

Maybe it's hard to believe it but in that list there are 3 players who started an All-Star Game (Jordan, Pippen & Armstrong) and 2 other ones who were selected (Grant & Cartwright).
Now tell me who besides Kobe played an All-Star game in todays Lakers? Damn man, "besides Pippen"? Pippen is in the top-5 best SF's EVER.

[Antonio_]

no but he'd be a better leader

"Lamar" and "leader" are two words you can't use in the same post.

[SGV]

Are you kidding me? The Bulls ALWAYS had consistant role players when they won rings, excellent bigs (Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman), great shooters (Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, John Paxson), reliable point guards (BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper), etc. etc. They were BUILT to win. It's crazy to say otherwise. When Jordan played with bums, before he hit his 30's, he always got bounced in the playoffs.

I'm talking 92-93. There's no Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr or Harper... Stay on topic please. Again, dudes like Grant and Armstrong were decent players at best, but around Jordan they were much better. You can see Armstrong's decline in 94, when Jordan retired. So, he wasn't really all tha reliable because once Jordan bounced (and once he went to another team) his numbers decreased crazy. For Grant, his Rebounding and his Points stats all went down once he left the Bulls and Jordan. Again, Jordan made him that better player that nobody else could make him. As for Paxson, he was never that great until he got with Jordan and the bulls. His clutch shooting was never more on point until he worked with Jordan. Again... this was a player who was made better by Jordan. All these cats he played with were decent at best, but with Jordan they were better than usual.

[SGV]

Maybe it's hard to believe it but in that list there are 3 players who started an All-Star Game (Jordan, Pippen & Armstrong) and 2 other ones who were selected (Grant & Cartwright).
Now tell me who besides Kobe played an All-Star game in todays Lakers? Damn man, "besides Pippen"? Pippen is in the top-5 best SF's EVER.

Grant made the All-Stars once... You can thank Jordan for that. Grant found a roll on the Bulls and he excelled at it because of Jordan, IMO. Same can be said for Armstrong. When did Grant or Armstrong do anything like that AFTER playing by Jordan's side? Never. Their careers declined well after that. So what did Jordan do right that Kobe isn't? He was able to help these players who really weren't all that, into All-Star caliber players at least once in their career.

Point is... Jordan took what he had and made it work. I didn't diss Pippen... So why bring him up like I did? Jordan and Pippen were great together, but they didn't win titles on their own, they had a cast surrounding them and that cast was made better by Jordan.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Are you kidding me? The Bulls ALWAYS had consistant role players when they won rings, excellent bigs (Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman), great shooters (Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, John Paxson), reliable point guards (BJ Armstrong, Ron Harper), etc. etc. They were BUILT to win. It's crazy to say otherwise. When Jordan played with bums, before he hit his 30's, he always got bounced in the playoffs.

I'm talking 92-93. There's no Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr or Harper... Stay on topic please. Again, dudes like Grant and Armstrong were decent players at best, but around Jordan they were much better. You can see Armstrong's decline in 94, when Jordan retired. So, he wasn't really all tha reliable because once Jordan bounced (and once he went to another team) his numbers decreased crazy. For Grant, his Rebounding and his Points stats all went down once he left the Bulls and Jordan. Again, Jordan made him that better player that nobody else could make him. As for Paxson, he was never that great until he got with Jordan and the bulls. His clutch shooting was never more on point until he worked with Jordan. Again... this was a player who was made better by Jordan. All these cats he played with were decent at best, but with Jordan they were better than usual.

WHAT THE HELL? Jordan never made ANY of these players better. Do you know what you're speaking on? They all had a specific role, and they played it to perfection. Grant was decent at best? ahahahah. He was the PERFECT role player for Chicago, and he was the same with Orlando, playing a major role in bringing them to the finals... Phil Jackson also brought him back to the Lakers threepeat team, because he liked him so much. BJ Armstrong was playing just as well in Golden State, again, Jordan did not "make him better". In fact, he averaged the most assists of his career when leaving the Bulls . The 92-93 Bulls were great. You have all of what you need. The defensive stopper (Pippen), the reliable point guard (BJ Armstrong), the inside force (Horace Grant), the pure shooter (John Paxson), and that's what Phil needed for his triangle...Jordan put it all together. Not to mention all the players were experienced and knew exactly what they were doing...Build a team like that around Kobe, and he will DOMINATE...PeACe

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

no but he'd be a better leader

"Lamar" and "leader" are two words you can't use in the same post.

I wouldn't go that far, he did a good job of leading Miami that 1 year, but honestly, that is one of the dumbest things Jake has said on here...

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Maybe it's hard to believe it but in that list there are 3 players who started an All-Star Game (Jordan, Pippen & Armstrong) and 2 other ones who were selected (Grant & Cartwright).
Now tell me who besides Kobe played an All-Star game in todays Lakers? Damn man, "besides Pippen"? Pippen is in the top-5 best SF's EVER.

Grant made the All-Stars once... You can thank Jordan for that. Grant found a roll on the Bulls and he excelled at it because of Jordan, IMO. Same can be said for Armstrong. When did Grant or Armstrong do anything like that AFTER playing by Jordan's side? Never. Their careers declined well after that. So what did Jordan do right that Kobe isn't? He was able to help these players who really weren't all that, into All-Star caliber players at least once in their career.

Point is... Jordan took what he had and made it work. I didn't diss Pippen... So why bring him up like I did? Jordan and Pippen were great together, but they didn't win titles on their own, they had a cast surrounding them and that cast was made better by Jordan.

LOL. What the HELL are you saying dude? Do you know ANYTHING about what we're discussing?

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

BTW, SGV...Bulls finished 2nd in the east and BJ Armstrong + Horace Grant had their best seasons the year Jordan retired.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html


 

[Antonio_]

Maybe it's hard to believe it but in that list there are 3 players who started an All-Star Game (Jordan, Pippen & Armstrong) and 2 other ones who were selected (Grant & Cartwright).
Now tell me who besides Kobe played an All-Star game in todays Lakers? Damn man, "besides Pippen"? Pippen is in the top-5 best SF's EVER.

Grant made the All-Stars once... You can thank Jordan for that. Grant found a roll on the Bulls and he excelled at it because of Jordan, IMO.

He was named in the 1992-93 All Defensive 2nd Team. He was a great defender, great rebounder, a great role player. Way better than Kwame Brown, if you ask me.

Same can be said for Armstrong.

He led the NBA in 3pts made and in 3pts % that year.

When did Grant or Armstrong do anything like that AFTER playing by Jordan's side? Never. Their careers declined well after that. So what did Jordan do right that Kobe isn't? He was able to help these players who really weren't all that, into All-Star caliber players at least once in their career.

The thing that makes me everytime i read something like that is that "Jordan made them...", "Jordan was", "Jordan did..". Man: Jordan was a man, not a God. The 2nd best player ever, ok, but he wasn't Jesus, and he didn't do miracles. He was a great leader, i give you that. But people seems to forget the fact it was Jordan AND PIPPEN. Two superstars. Plus Phil Jackson. So it's arguably the best coach ever + arguably the best shooting guard ever + the best point forward ever. Plus a good supporting cast. It's not like Michael was alone. Hell no! He had Pippen and Jackson, man. And they all made teammates better because the system was the perfect one to make people play better than they usually do, plus they had two superstars like Jordan & Pippen who were two real leaders and two of the best players ever. When Kobe had another superstar like Shaq playing with him, the Lakers made Fox a great player, they made Fisher a great player, they even made Samaki Walker a pretty decent player (still garbage, but better than he was before he joined the Lakers), etc.. What i'm saying is that a player alone isn't enought, even if he's called Michael Jordan. It was Jordan+Pippen+Jackson, the dream team trio. Comparable to the Kobe+Shaq+Phil trio. So if you wanna compare the first trio you should compare it with the Kobe+Shaq+Phil one, man. You can't compare Jordan+Pippen+Jackson to Kobe+Phil+a lottery team. Odom is a good player, but he's no better than Kukoc, or Rodman, or Grant, or Horry, etc.. he's more like a role player who is very skilled, but he's not a superstar like Pippen. C'mon!! I'm not denying Jordan made his teammates better, no doubt. But he also hated Kukoc, he also had a couple of fights during pratice, he also had his problems. People seems to forget about the negative things he did and seems to remember only the good things. Nike did a great job.

Point is... Jordan took what he had and made it work. I didn't diss Pippen... So why bring him up like I did? Jordan and Pippen were great together, but they didn't win titles on their own, they had a cast surrounding them and that cast was made better by Jordan.

Again: that team had the best SG ever, the best Point Forward ever, the best coach ever and 3 other great role players who were in the All-Defensive team (Horace), who were 1st in 3 points shots made and 3pts % (Armstrong) and who were All-Star before (Cartwright).

[teecee]

Antonio:
Who was better than Jordan?  6 playoff MVP's without a real post player to play with puts him #1 according to 99% of bball fans.  Did you watch the man play?  I never saw Wilt, Russell, etc play, but the only on ethat comes close would be Magic?  Is he your number one?


THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

[GangstaBoogy]

Lol @ Horace Grant being decent. That guy was really underrated. He wasn't a flashy athletic bigman (ie: Stoudemire/Howard) but he did what he was supposed to do: get the easy inside points, play defense, grab rebounds, and block shots. And I'm sure when Jordan passed him the ball he didn't drop the ball over & over like a certain big man signed to the Lakers right now

PS: whats your excuse for Horace being good in Orlando, all glory goes to Shaq?

[SGV]

THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

This is what it boils down to. Grant & Armstrong may have had their best seasons individually, but without Jordan what did they do? With Jordan they won titles. Why? Because he made them that much better as a team. He made them that much better as players. Without Jordan nobody would remember Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong. They never would've been All-Stars. Jordan did that for them...

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

This is what it boils down to. Grant & Armstrong may have had their best seasons individually, but without Jordan what did they do? With Jordan they won titles. Why? Because he made them that much better as a team. He made them that much better as players. Without Jordan nobody would remember Horace Grant or BJ Armstrong. They never would've been All-Stars. Jordan did that for them...

What are you talking about? They played on the same caliber WITH or WITHOUT Jordan...They were one win away from advancing to the Eastern Conference Finals. Jordan was simply the one who put it all together, they had a team built. Take Kobe off of the Lakers, and it's a COMPLETELY different story. Just admit you were wrong, dude. Everyone knows the Bulls were built to win.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Antonio:
Who was better than Jordan?  6 playoff MVP's without a real post player to play with puts him #1 according to 99% of bball fans.  Did you watch the man play?  I never saw Wilt, Russell, etc play, but the only on ethat comes close would be Magic?  Is he your number one?


THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

The point is, Jordan didn't elevate anyone...In fact, he was known for the exact opposite before the NBA+media started riding Jordan in the 90's. If he made a difference on a teammates game, there was more chances of that mark being negative. And as much as the media loved him, not even they praised him making "teammates better". He's not even close in that category to a Magic or a Bird...PeACe

[floatin_above_everything]

Can't believe this kid would disgrace Jordan.