NAS ARGUMENT CHALLENGED.

[Sikotic™]

Why do I got the feeling a majority of people getting pissed over this topic are of the caucasian race?

Take it from a black man: you're blowing this out of proportion.

[Shallow]

1) Didn't the introspective Folk movement of Bob Dylan have anything to do with influencing hip hop? How about hardrock? I swear I've heard Hendrix and Page solos that resemble scratching.

I understand the rest of your post... but on this one... huh? 

Hip-Hop is not so much based off scratching as it is looping. Basically in parties in New York, they'd play the popular records, but most were slow, and so they'd take the part that was fast, and loop it so you can dance to the beat. Over time, emcees would rhyme over the looped part. Everything feel into place from there. At least that's my understanding from people from NY that are huge Hip-Hop heads. I've read stuff like that too, but I was not there in the 70's, maybe you are right.

Well I wouldn't even say I was right, because I don't know. I just look at the similarities and a few interviews I've seen. I heard someone (I think it was DMC) talking about Walk This Way, and he said that back in the day when he was young that DJs would cut rock records because the soul and Motown stuff was too soft. I don't know how common it was, but id it makes any difference, Walk This Way by Aerosmith from '78 is the exact same song as Walk This way by Aerosmith and Run DMC from '85. I even think Steve Tyler has a nicer flow.

With regards to the Dylan folk remark; Chuck D has stated his admiration for Steven Stills, a half black folk rocker from the 60s. He was on the He Got Game single and composed the original song it was sampled from. Stills as well as everyone else fromthe late 60s folk rock era has credited Dylan as an influence. Bob Dylan was the first to take complex rhyme patterns, and hidden lyrical messages of politics and injustice and put them in song. At least he's credited as such. If there was a guy before him, he isn't mentioned. Woody Guthrie was Dylan before Dylan, but Guthrie never took to the same levels as Dylan. I'll post some lyrics;


(It'll be a long read, so don't read if you don't want, but these are great lyrics).


This is It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding). It's got political views but the rhyme patterns and lyricism reminds me a lot of rapping. If you hear it it's evident.

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.




This is Subterranean Homesick Blues. The second verse really sounds like he's rapping.

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D. A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don't try "No Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin' to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters
Six-time losers
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin' for a new fool
Don't follow leaders
Watch the parkin' meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don't wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don't work
'Cause the vandals took the handles


This is The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll. A poltical song about racial injustice when a rich white man murders a black maid. The rhyme scheme isn't complex but the message is bold for 1964.

William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gath'rin'.
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.

William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland,
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling,
In a matter of minutes on bail was out walking.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.

Hattie Carroll was a maid of the kitchen.
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level,
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room,
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle.
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.

In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom,
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'.
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished,
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance,
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence.
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.


And for good measure here is the song that changed the face of popular music. It was the first hit single to go past the normal 2 to 3 minute mark, and went 6 minutes. It changed the way popular artists wrote and recorded songs. It was 1965 and it was "Like A Rolling Stone". A diss song to a girl. Possibly a lost love or a friend that took the wrong path.


Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you'd better lift your diamond ring, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.

How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?

[Drudge]

I didn't know you fellas had already batted this subject around. I read this post on Nas at allhiphop.com yesterday and it seemed like a good topic to discuss. However, it seems the debate has gotten a little out of perspective. My contention is, Nas and others like to point out that when a black men becomes successful and dates white women and don't talk ebonics you've 'sold out'. Then he has the audacity to lift up other men who have done the same things as those he said 'sold out'. Jim Brown was one of the first black men to lie with white women on film. Furthermore, I feel if a black man is successful because of hard work, he doesn't owe me or anyone else nothing. However, Nas won't dare say anything negative about a descent rapper with lyrical skills. He picks on movie stars and atheletes cause he knows if he puts a rapper on blast he might get his shit tested.

[smartass]

its funny how all of the other supposed "black men" in this thread support another black man who wanted to do a fake lynching on stage. you will support nas when he talks shit about our own race, but yet, if he were to go at eminem for his racist comments, you bitches would probably start whining just like he is. you disgust me. brother j should talk some sense into this idiot.

[M Dogg™]

its funny how all of the other supposed "black men" in this thread support another black man who wanted to do a fake lynching on stage. you will support nas when he talks shit about our own race, but yet, if he were to go at eminem for his racist comments, you bitches would probably start whining just like he is. you disgust me. brother j should talk some sense into this idiot.

huh?

I'm not black... I'm Latino if you assume I was black. Just to let you know.

Anyway, this is how it is. We all grew up in communities that have supported us and helped us. We owe our communities a piece of our success. Why? Because we cannot make it without our community, our family, and our friends. You think Snoop could make it without his longtime wife. Now she left him because through thick and thin, she was there for him, supporting him and he sold her out by cheating on her like she was not important. Without our teachers, the people supporting us, we cannot make it in this world. The whole idea, we don't owe anyone shit, is a straight U.S. base ideology because we are capitalist, we like to think it's all our work that gets us were we are. But in reality it's like the old African saying, "it takes a village to raise a kid." and that's so true. From the churches that teach us religion, to the teachers that teaches us knowlegde, to the peers that become our peers and support us, to our high school girlfriends that give us blow jobs, they all have a part in our growing up, and we do owe our success to them. If not in money, at least reconized that these people had something to do with us. Show up, let the people know you love them for them supporting you before you became famous.

[BacktoWacko]

I didn't know you fellas had already batted this subject around. I read this post on Nas at allhiphop.com yesterday and it seemed like a good topic to discuss. However, it seems the debate has gotten a little out of perspective. My contention is, Nas and others like to point out that when a black men becomes successful and dates white women and don't talk ebonics you've 'sold out'. Then he has the audacity to lift up other men who have done the same things as those he said 'sold out'. Jim Brown was one of the first black men to lie with white women on film. Furthermore, I feel if a black man is successful because of hard work, he doesn't owe me or anyone else nothing. However, Nas won't dare say anything negative about a descent rapper with lyrical skills. He picks on movie stars and atheletes cause he knows if he puts a rapper on blast he might get his shit tested.

is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas thats  married to white women. before you say nas doesnt dare to do that....   cuz my opinion is that nas would crush any rapper alive in lyrics..

[STILLDRE IS THE GODFATHER]

is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas





i can answer this 1 lol no

yall taking this way too serious this is what nas wanted

[BacktoWacko]

is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas





i can answer this 1 lol no

yall taking this way too serious this is what nas wanted

lol yes I geuss your right but I just wondered cuz he saying like nas is afraid... and I just wanted to tell my opinion thats nas aint scared..

[picoplaya]

needs to go back to his i aim  style

[picoplaya]

nas is full of shit , dont beleive anything he raps about ,

[RZARECTA]

nas is like the only rapper who has no   outside peeps tellin him what he can and cannot put in his music he makes his music just for him

[wilz]

Nas is a racist. Why should he be allowed to say things like this? Nas used to be the best Lyricist but not any more, he too full of shit. Why does he go for Tiger? why not go for a rapper who lives the lifestyle of a "white" person. Cos he is full of shit. He realises he is past it so won't go after a rapper cos they will come back at him. The Guy is a racist who thinks he should be Dictator the guy doesn't know shit. why doesn't he give up all his money? Why should Tiger who has worked harder than nas give up his money.

The guy is a Fascist

[BacktoWacko]

Nas is a racist. Why should he be allowed to say things like this? Nas used to be the best Lyricist but not any more, he too full of shit. Why does he go for Tiger? why not go for a rapper who lives the lifestyle of a "white" person. Cos he is full of shit. He realises he is past it so won't go after a rapper cos they will come back at him. The Guy is a racist who thinks he should be Dictator the guy doesn't know shit. why doesn't he give up all his money? Why should Tiger who has worked harder than nas give up his money.

The guy is a Fascist

is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas thats married to white women. before you say nas doesnt dare to do that.... cuz my opinion is that nas would crush any rapper alive in lyrics..