Slim vs 50???

[dubsmith_nz]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

[Dre-Day]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

yes, there even was a bidding war going on, between labels

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

Guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. You're not likely to find a bigger fan of Dr. Dre than me but I find it really hard to believe that Aftermath were the ones pushing him on the marketing end. And Shady prior to bringing in 50 was putting their push behind Obie Trice, who noticeably went on the back-burner when 50 entered the picture. The guy was just "IT!". He put "Guess Who's Back" out in April 2002. This was the CD that Eminem would end up hearing that convinced him to sign him. 50's shit came out in early February 2003. 50 already had that buzz to where they could come in and build on it. What Dre did was give him the single to sell the album. The difference betwen 50 and these other guys who did the rounds on Shady and Aftermath was in marketing and management. As much as Dre and Em get the credit on the image, Chris Lighty and Violator were doing their fucking work to get that guy going. That's why these other mixtape kids didn't get the same thing going. That's why 50 Cent was able to put his name on so many business ventures because he's a strong-ass business man and he would have been that with or without Dr. Dre and Eminem. He probably would have sold a little less but he'd have gotten there.

I would point to "The Big Bang" as the ultimate example of the shortcomings of Aftermath on a business level. Production-wise, it's some of Dre's best work and was in my opinion, the best album to drop that year, but nobody is even thinking about that project anymore when it should have been the jump-off for "Detox". I would argue the one project that Dre's touch could have used was the Mobb Deep G-Unit album. They had a good little street single with that "Outta Control" remix but that was a double-dip track and they never got an official jump-off single to get that project going in the right direction so that might have been where it could have worked. Dre is a "music man". He'll give you the right music to solidify the project in terms of selling but his track record with building new artists on a promotional level is spotty. Developing them in the studio and teaching them the tricks of the trade, he knows his thing but pushing them? I don't know if he's top-tier in that regard.

In regards to those beefs or issues, some of those dudes did actually throw shots first, specifically Nas, who really ain't beefing with 50, it's just shots being thrown at one another. Who's to say Em never rode with 50? He fired his DJ for backing the Lox. Shade 45 didn't play Game music at one point and to my knowledge still doesn't. They also put out a XXL special Shade 45 issue with all Eminem and Shady Records artist stories and one featured G-Unit members Yayo, Banks, and Spider Loc talking about Game. He got 50 dissing Game on one of the tracks on his mixtape. What I said wasn't he didn't publicly address it but on a level of business, he seems to side with 50 Cent on a lot of moves.

I guarantee you that if Game would have not responded to 50, his career would've died right after that. Game was heading out the door whether he dissed 50 or not.

I can't say I agree with that either. He got dropped from G-Unit but 50's peace treaty interview opened up the door for them to work together again. The basic sentiment from those close to Dre was the Aftermath door closed on him when he went against his word and lied to Dre. I'd also venture to say if Game had just kept it at "fuck 50" and moved on, he probably could have repaired it but once you go throwing fuel on the "50's a snitch" fire, you can't really put that out. If they were going to kabosh Game's career there, they would have but there was too much money in a follow-up to "Documentary" for Interscope to pull the plug. Hence why they just moved him to a different division, instead of giving him a full-out release.

What if Buck or Banks wanted collabos with Nas or D-Block? What about Terror Squad? Nah they can't!

I got news for you. It's like that at every label. It doesn't have to be beef. You sign with a label, they have exclusive say on who you work with or don't work with. They are paying you to represent their label as an artist. It's more open to the public because hip-hop is so verbal with its business but Clive Davis isn't going to give one of his artists a clearance to go make music for Jimmy Iovine or Tommy Motola if it's not in the best interest of his business. How often did you hear of Dr. Dre producing music outside of Death Row when he was over there?

I agree with much of what you've said and didn't deny it. At the same time, I'm not expecting to change your mind because it's really based on opinion. We will never find out whether 50 would have done it without him. My opinion is he would not. Even if someone else would have picked him up, he would never have created the hits without Dre or the fanbase that came with signing to Aftermath. I mean it's common sense. You are teaming up with Dre and Em. Now, you can make the argument and claim that others didn't make it that were on Aftermath but to me, that's irrelevant. You can't expect every motherfucker to sign and blow up. Like you said 50 just had the "IT" factor! Does this mean he would have sold the same on another label? IMO NO. I can think of a shit load of dudes that had craaazy buzz on the streets and never made it. To claim that 50 was heading to the top because of his buzz, is not accurate. You can bring up Stat Quo, Bishop, etc etc but none of those foos got shot 9 times haha! 50 Cent had a story to go along with that music buzz. So in a sense, he had everything going for him to explode. The shit that I'm saying is that Aftermath set him OFF! Aftermath didn't just add more TNT but actually put him in that position to blow off the charts! 50 broke Snoop's record for sales for a debut artist! I remember so many people saying, "who the fuck is 50"? "It's this new cat that signed to Dre and Em, who got shot 9 fucking times and survived"! I'm buying his shit then haha!. After seeing what 50 has become, it's real easy to claim he would have done it without Dre.

The Big Bang? That's a bad analogy. Busta was not NEW to the industry, he wasn't doing gangsta rap (which was still in demand) and that was 3 years after 50. Many things were changing. Nobody buys albums anymore. Slowly but surely shit was changing in the industry. Dre did have some bangers on that album but it was BUSTA RHYMES. What story was he carrying? I don't think I need to explain why I disagree with this example.

Nas threw a shot at 50??? Really? When was this? What song? So is this why Nas did "Dont body yourself"? The message on that song was real clear. Stop creating attention towards yourself before someone actually puts an end to it (2Pac). Why would Nas reply with a track like that, If he was the first to diss? Makes no sense. Fired a DJ?? Oh wow WW3 ha. Em not playing Game's music is basically saying I'm NOT GETTING INVOLVED. Why do you think Game never dissed EM? Plus, why wouldn't he do that especially after Game was thrown out of Aftermath. Once again Eminem displayed his intelligence and found ways to avoid the situation and still able to please 50 without really dissing Game. I don't see how any of this displays Eminem riding for 50. After watching Eminem try to destroy Ja Rule in the past, I would say the examples your brought up were very, very soft bro.

Peace treaty?? Please don't tell you you're talking about that fake public appearance where they "kissed" and supposedly made up??? Did you really believe that? The whole set up was fake and awkward. They BOTH dissed each other after that. I guarantee you that 95% of the folks who seen that, came up with the same conclusion. IT WAS FAKE! I'm beginning to understand why we aren't agreeing on shit ha. We just don't see the same things. In my eyes, the beef was never over and who are we to say what was going behind closed doors. I thought It was obvious nothing was settled.

You really comparing Death Row to Aftermath??? You were a fucking prisoner on Death Row. Dre didn't have the power he has now. Sure, I understand that you can't always work with every artist because of business. You're missing the whole point though. Don't burn potential bridges is what I'm getting at. You don't know what the future holds. Plus, who says they couldn't of made it happen? What if the business was right? It seems you are drifting away from the topic. You say you are the biggest Dre fan but you are a bigger fan of 50 haha. You have an excuse for every one of his mistakes.

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

Like I said homie, I'm not expecting to change anybody's mind. Now that 50 is celebrity, it's easier to disagree with me. I respect your opinion though.

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

yes, there even was a bidding war going on, between labels

Maybe I made a mistake for saying 50 would have gone nowhere without Aftermath. What I meant was that he would have not reached the status without them. I'm sure that someone would have signed him and probably would have had success. I just believe that Aftermath took him to a level that no other label would've been able to do.

[Jimmy H.]

The Busta album wasn't an analogy, it was an example. I'm not using it as a comparison to 50's debut. I'm using it as the counterpoint to what happens when it's just Dre and Aftermath pushing the product. You're actually saying some things I genuinely agree on and have stated before but you're just backwards in certain areas. 50 was the whole package and Dre-Em solidfied that but in stating that, you can't overlook the importance of 50's own team in taking care of everything else. I mean, I look at Eminem, a much more popular artist from a sales perspective but his brand took a lot longer to get going than 50's did and in most cases, 50's projects in terms of artists and groups were selling roughly the same or better. 50 knows how to push his label and brand to get the most out of it. I mean, if you read that book that Dre's right-hand, Bruce, put out, he talks about how Aftermath wasn't even getting the V.I.P. perks on the Up In Smoke Tour that some of the other groups were and Aftermath were the ones doing the fucking tour. Like I said when it comes to Dre's strengths, he's great at development of artists and production of music but pushing the gun to get albums out and getting the promotional buzz machine working have NEVER been his strong points. 50 is a hype machine. Game's career was born out of 50 being the one to see the money in pushing what Dre was doing with Game. You talk about Game being alive because he put out all them mixtapes and DVD's going at G-Unit? Where do you think that fucking blueprint came from?

Nas threw a shot at 50??? Really? When was this? What song? So is this why Nas did "Dont body yourself"?

Nas threw out a comment at a live concert about playing real hip-hop, not that G-Unit shit at a concert. His brother, Jungle, had made some comments on 50 when he was first blowing up. Nas had had a shakey history with a lot of artists when it came to actions he made. It was the same deal with Cormega, Foxy, Nature, Prodigy, Lakey the Kid, and many others. He and Fif have never been actually beefing but they've both been taking shots at one another and that's how it is.

The Big Bang? That's a bad analogy. Busta was not NEW to the industry, he wasn't doing gangsta rap (which was still in demand) and that was 3 years after 50. Many things were changing. Nobody buys albums anymore. Slowly but surely shit was changing in the industry. Dre did have some bangers on that album but it was BUSTA RHYMES. What story was he carrying? I don't think I need to explain why I disagree with this example.

Actually, the album sold good out of the gate. It was #1. I'd liken it to Game's post-Interscope albums. Hot sales the first week with declining momentum because there is nobody to push the fucking music. You don't have to be a new artist for shit to work out. An established artist re-inventing himself with a new team behind him can be just as effective.

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

Hmmm well it sure seems like an analogy to me since we we're talking about 50 but whatever. You make very good points and I acknowledged that 50 expanded and carried the G-Unit movement. Remember that I didn't deny 50 having a major buzz before. The difference is that his major success came AFTER he got the "power" when he signed to Aftermath. I'm not surprised at all that 50's brand was doing great but you need to understand why. Em's whole style is less appealing to the masses. G-Unit was carrying that "G" appeal that is very attractive. His whole story was more attractive. Compare it to Em living a trailer trash life and it's not even close. 50 took advantage of every opportunity, while he was at the top. The clothing came AFTER he was signed. Most of his money and opportunities came AFTER his album release, while he was HOT. Sure 50 competed with EM in sales but once again, this is when he signed with Aftermath. What happened to 50 now? How do his sales compare to Em now? Things change. Him getting shot is old news and he changed his style dramatically. Even after doing love songs, his sales are poor compared to his debut. Also, I never said Dre was literally the marketing director or anything like that. Dre's Name and legacy is where he gets his power. Dre focuses on the music, so he gave him beats, production and structured the album. All this is stamped by DRE. That alone created sales and fan's for 50. I'm not even going to talk about Em. I remember Mack 10 in an interview speaking how Dre took Xzibit from gold status to multi-platinum! How do you think he did it? Game may have took the blueprint from 50 but it worked right ha? So you believe that if 50 had never signed to Aftermath, he would have had the same success in sales, brand etc??

50 beefing with Nas is false bro. I respect what you say but I don't believe this. 50 and Nas had collaborated before he signed to Aftermath. Nas spoke about this many times. He never understood why 50 took shots at him. All that sounds like -  he say, she say. Concert? C'mon dawg, give me an interview or something on wax. That's gossip to me. If that were to be true Nas or 50 would have said this. Like I said, Nas never understood where he was coming from and the track is evidence to that. How about the rest of dudes he beefed with?

Well there it is! Busta had good sales. What does that tell you? That Dre was a reason. Sure his sales declined but it's not like I was expecting Busta to break any records. Of course you don't need to be a new artist for shit to work out. The difference is that Busta didn't bring anything new to the table. Like I said, 50 had a story straight out of the movies. He also brought the beef with Ja Rule, his gangsta music and style. You add Dre and Em? He went from being known as 50 CENT's ha, to just 50! Let's not forget that Aftermath was the on top of the world in that specific time. Eminem and Dre were still carrying a shit load of momentum from the MM LP and 2001 releases! Aftermath had all the Juice. 50 Came in right at the perfect time.

It's all good. We just have different opinions.

[Jimmy H.]

I'm not talking about their solo sales as artist. Em's always had that down. I'm talking about artists on their label. Like you compare Shady Records with D-12 and Obie to G-Unit with the G-Unit group, Banks, Buck, whoever. 50 has better the channel for promotion and the sales were coming in that direction. And I'm sorry but Busta's sales weren't there. If a simple Dre co-sign was what it took, we'd have a lot more 50 Cents out there. Dude had it.

And I'll try to find a link on that Nas comment but it was addressed many times by both sides. Nas came out and said this is ain't that fake 50 Cent shit at a concert and then tried to play it back like he was only saying it because the crowd was feeling that. And it's not no hatred of Nas. He's one of my all-time favorite artists but I feel like 50 catches a lot of hate for making decisions to agressively protect his brand.

I remember Mack 10 in an interview speaking how Dre took Xzibit from gold status to multi-platinum! How do you think he did it? Game may have took the blueprint from 50 but it worked right ha? So you believe that if 50 had never signed to Aftermath, he would have had the same success in sales, brand etc??

Not what I'm saying at all. It's like this. Would 50 have had those sales without Dre? No. Would Dre have had a new artist go 5x platinum if he didn't find 50? No. Dre the producer had more to do with 50 Cent's success than Aftermath the marketing machine and that's my enitial point. You bring up Xzibit and let's go with this. Xzibit was not on Aftermath. Dre put his name on the executive producer and did X's album but Aftermath didn't touch it. Another label did all that work. Which is where Dre tends to excell. The thing I've already credited him with. He gives these artists the pieces to become stars but he ain't the one holding the flashlight and hasn't been in a minute. If Game was only on Aftermath, there is no way you would have had "Documentary" in 2005. The guy was with Dre since 2002 with not much going there. He joined G-Unit in 2004 and he had an album done in under a year. 50 made him visible. His first official guest spot was Banks' album. He had another one on Buck's album. He had a Whoo Kid mixtape with the exclusive Eazy-E track on there to get the buzz going. What Aftermath album he ever been on? Dr. Dre is arguably one of my biggest heroes but how many Aftermath mixtapes have you heard? He played a major hand in 50 Cent being a superstar but all I'm saying is it wasn't because Aftermath was pushing the shit out of his CD's.

[hitsaw]

I don't think that The Game would dropped an album on afthermath without G Unit, look at joe beast, rakim, stat quo.
50 Cent made The Game just like he made banks, buck and yayo.
Hate it or love it was not a dre beat and if this is how we do was produced by some other producer it would do the same numbers.

[dubsmith_nz]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

yes, there even was a bidding war going on, between labels

Maybe I made a mistake for saying 50 would have gone nowhere without Aftermath. What I meant was that he would have not reached the status without them. I'm sure that someone would have signed him and probably would have had success. I just believe that Aftermath took him to a level that no other label would've been able to do.

+1 homie, that's all I was meaning. Some great conversation in this topic, without it falling into mindless insults, this is what a forum should be like.

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

I'm not talking about their solo sales as artist. Em's always had that down. I'm talking about artists on their label. Like you compare Shady Records with D-12 and Obie to G-Unit with the G-Unit group, Banks, Buck, whoever. 50 has better the channel for promotion and the sales were coming in that direction. And I'm sorry but Busta's sales weren't there. If a simple Dre co-sign was what it took, we'd have a lot more 50 Cents out there. Dude had it.

And I'll try to find a link on that Nas comment but it was addressed many times by both sides. Nas came out and said this is ain't that fake 50 Cent shit at a concert and then tried to play it back like he was only saying it because the crowd was feeling that. And it's not no hatred of Nas. He's one of my all-time favorite artists but I feel like 50 catches a lot of hate for making decisions to agressively protect his brand.

I remember Mack 10 in an interview speaking how Dre took Xzibit from gold status to multi-platinum! How do you think he did it? Game may have took the blueprint from 50 but it worked right ha? So you believe that if 50 had never signed to Aftermath, he would have had the same success in sales, brand etc??

Not what I'm saying at all. It's like this. Would 50 have had those sales without Dre? No. Would Dre have had a new artist go 5x platinum if he didn't find 50? No. Dre the producer had more to do with 50 Cent's success than Aftermath the marketing machine and that's my enitial point. You bring up Xzibit and let's go with this. Xzibit was not on Aftermath. Dre put his name on the executive producer and did X's album but Aftermath didn't touch it. Another label did all that work. Which is where Dre tends to excell. The thing I've already credited him with. He gives these artists the pieces to become stars but he ain't the one holding the flashlight and hasn't been in a minute. If Game was only on Aftermath, there is no way you would have had "Documentary" in 2005. The guy was with Dre since 2002 with not much going there. He joined G-Unit in 2004 and he had an album done in under a year. 50 made him visible. His first official guest spot was Banks' album. He had another one on Buck's album. He had a Whoo Kid mixtape with the exclusive Eazy-E track on there to get the buzz going. What Aftermath album he ever been on? Dr. Dre is arguably one of my biggest heroes but how many Aftermath mixtapes have you heard? He played a major hand in 50 Cent being a superstar but all I'm saying is it wasn't because Aftermath was pushing the shit out of his CD's.

Well, I already explained my point of view. I made it clear that 50 did lead his brand and expanded but this came after he signed to Aftermath. I know Busta's sales weren't there. I feel that you keep comparing apples to oranges. D-12 and Obie weren't "gangster rappers". G-Unit as a whole was more appealing. Plus I already explained the package 50 was carrying with his story and beef.

As far as 50 and Nas, to me that's not legit. People talk and whisper all the time. If that's the case than 50 would have started many more since he opens his fucking mouth about other artist all the time. The beef started with dissing ON WAX. You saw what happened with Jay and 50 right? 50 made "How to Rob", and Jay responded in a concert. Where did that go? Nowhere. I've followed the Nas and 50 beef since waay back and never heard anything about no concert. If it did, it was petty.

Would Dre find a New Artist and go 5x Plat? Well, he did it with Snoop and Eminem. But To answer your question, I would say, NO and I never argued that. My argument was saying that 50 came with the buzz and the "it" factor but ONLY Dre and EM would have been able to take him to that status. Anywhere else, that wouldn't of happened. Dr Dre is Aftermath. The Xzibit example proves my point. It's Dre regardless of label. When I speak of Aftermath, I'm speaking of Dre.

In a way, they both needed each other, just like Snoop needed Dre and Dre needed Snoop. Dre and Em! The difference is that DRE was already a LEGEND. He already had the POWER. He had the Millions! 50 didn't! So Dre and Em's impact was greater in every way, regardless of 50's buzz on the street.  It was a WIN/WIN for both sides but at the end of the day, what got it done, was DRE and EM choosing to bring him in. Ya dig? That's just what I believe.

[LAC/EASTSIDE]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

yes, there even was a bidding war going on, between labels

Maybe I made a mistake for saying 50 would have gone nowhere without Aftermath. What I meant was that he would have not reached the status without them. I'm sure that someone would have signed him and probably would have had success. I just believe that Aftermath took him to a level that no other label would've been able to do.

+1 homie, that's all I was meaning. Some great conversation in this topic, without it falling into mindless insults, this is what a forum should be like.

No doubt homie, no doubt! +1 to Jimmy H as well! Its all good n gravy!

[Dre-Day]

A lot of knowledge dropped here, I tend to side with Jimmy H in the point of view that 50 had way too much buzz in the streets not to blow up whether he signed with Dre or not.

yes, there even was a bidding war going on, between labels

Maybe I made a mistake for saying 50 would have gone nowhere without Aftermath. What I meant was that he would have not reached the status without them. I'm sure that someone would have signed him and probably would have had success. I just believe that Aftermath took him to a level that no other label would've been able to do.

oh yeah eminem & dre backing him definitely helped a lot

[Jimmy H.]

+1 to you too, bro. Good convo.

[dubsmith_nz]

Yo LAC, 50 actually did go at Jay after his "I'm about a dollar what the fuck is 50 cent" line. "Be A Gentleman" was aimed at Jay.

Yo, no more freestyles and verses killin' Sticky and Ja
I've movin' on now, I got bigger fish to fry
Since 'How to Rob' a lot of niggas been naming names
Monkey see monkey do, I done changed the game
Still niggas acting like I don't get down or something
Like I aint the next nigga to wear the crown or something
You gonna talk about your chips till we run in your crib
And you gone ask dumb questions like "Can I Live?"
Look, If I shoot you, I'm famous
If you shoot me your brainless, you said it yourself
I'm slick enough to twist your lines and send them back at you
Swift enough to snatch the mack and pop that at you
Take it personal see if I won't send you to hell
I've done told Ton and Pok? they better have my bail
But if its over a mil don't put the crib up dun
Cause if 50 get free nigga, 50 gonna run

The whole verse is directed at Jay but the lines in bold really prove it without mentioning his name. I don't think Jay ever came back with a reply though