Any of ya'll ready to retract your ridiculous "LeBron>Kobe" claims yet?

[Shallow]

My point is still clear M Dogg, as long as you still even have to argue it Kobe is not the current MJ. There was no argument when MJ had the crown. People even argue if he hadn't retired in the first place the Bulls would have had 8 straight titles. I'm not saying Kobe isn't the best right now. I'm saying if he is he isn't as much better than the rest as Jordan was better than the rest. And he also wasn't in the argument as long as Larry and Magic were (not yet anyway). He also isn't yet as much better than the rest as Shaq and Duncan were. If he wins this series the way he won last game then he might be. If he wins next year too then he definitely will be.


I don't like comparing Duncan or Shaq then vs Kobe now would lose because I don't know. Would any of the Championship team Spurs lose to this years Lakers? I don't know. They can never play each other. Would Shaq in his prime on this years Magic beat these Lakers? It's not possible to know.

But it is possible to judge whether Kobe is considered on top the same way Jordan was, and the result of that as of right now is no he isn't on top the same way.

As I was saying though, it seemed like last year was built as Kobe's year, the NBA put money into the Lakers/Celtics, and the whole best player vs. 3 all-stars. This year, they wanted Lebron/Kobe bad, with Lebron winning. They are building to the MJ/Magic series.


I wasn't trying to argue past vs. present, I was trying to go down the line. From Magic to MJ, to Shaq/Duncan, to Nash/Kobe, to now with Kobe/Lebron. I wouldn't argue, oh 2003 Spurs beat 2009 Lakers, who knows.

I'm also saying that right now, Kobe is on a level that I've never seen him reach, and at a level I only saw MJ reach during his first 3peat. When the Lakers win, I think the argument is closed over Kobe/LeBron, until LeBron comes back with a winning team, Kobe will have won the argument. It's more like late 80's, you know MJ is waiting for his turn, but Magic and Bird were just on top of their game.

Not implying you'd argue past teams vs current ones. Just wanted to cement to anyone reading that might want to say "yeah well 2000 Duncan wouldn't have done shit against 09 Kobe".


I personally don't see what makes Kobe this year or one of the first 3peat Jordan any higher than what Bird did in the 83/84 playoffs. But whatever.

[M Dogg™]

My point is still clear M Dogg, as long as you still even have to argue it Kobe is not the current MJ. There was no argument when MJ had the crown. People even argue if he hadn't retired in the first place the Bulls would have had 8 straight titles. I'm not saying Kobe isn't the best right now. I'm saying if he is he isn't as much better than the rest as Jordan was better than the rest. And he also wasn't in the argument as long as Larry and Magic were (not yet anyway). He also isn't yet as much better than the rest as Shaq and Duncan were. If he wins this series the way he won last game then he might be. If he wins next year too then he definitely will be.


I don't like comparing Duncan or Shaq then vs Kobe now would lose because I don't know. Would any of the Championship team Spurs lose to this years Lakers? I don't know. They can never play each other. Would Shaq in his prime on this years Magic beat these Lakers? It's not possible to know.

But it is possible to judge whether Kobe is considered on top the same way Jordan was, and the result of that as of right now is no he isn't on top the same way.

As I was saying though, it seemed like last year was built as Kobe's year, the NBA put money into the Lakers/Celtics, and the whole best player vs. 3 all-stars. This year, they wanted Lebron/Kobe bad, with Lebron winning. They are building to the MJ/Magic series.


I wasn't trying to argue past vs. present, I was trying to go down the line. From Magic to MJ, to Shaq/Duncan, to Nash/Kobe, to now with Kobe/Lebron. I wouldn't argue, oh 2003 Spurs beat 2009 Lakers, who knows.

I'm also saying that right now, Kobe is on a level that I've never seen him reach, and at a level I only saw MJ reach during his first 3peat. When the Lakers win, I think the argument is closed over Kobe/LeBron, until LeBron comes back with a winning team, Kobe will have won the argument. It's more like late 80's, you know MJ is waiting for his turn, but Magic and Bird were just on top of their game.

Not implying you'd argue past teams vs current ones. Just wanted to cement to anyone reading that might want to say "yeah well 2000 Duncan wouldn't have done shit against 09 Kobe".


I personally don't see what makes Kobe this year or one of the first 3peat Jordan any higher than what Bird did in the 83/84 playoffs. But whatever.

Not much, other than most people here grew up on MJ, so they love him, and Kobe is doing it now, so it's relevant, but Bird was back when I was 3, and I'm an elder around here, so it's not in people's minds. Now my brother in laws, since my wife is the youngest of 5, are all older, and they still talk about Bird like it was yesterday. So it's all who your crowd is.

[PLANT]

If anyone in this section should have an objective opinion on things, it should be our MOD....NIK sounds like such a lil whiney bitch all the fucking time, its rediculous.  NIK has nothing to offer in this section because you ALWAYS know what youre going to get from him....A bunch of bullshit posts about he is right and everyone is wrong, and how his opinion matters most...Terrible choice for a moderator

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

daygostylz is retarded, foreal...he doesn't realize we've been over this many times before. i've explained so many times in the past how lebron's hype in the media is mostly over financial purposes, yet he keeps bringing up how the media makes claims of lebron being better. lebron is closer to a carmelo or a wade than he is to a kobe. there is nothing "slow" about that, idiot...the only thing slow is you not getting that the NBA is trying it's hardest to act like lebron is on kobes level so that they can fabricate a rivalry. watch 'em play. lebron has a ways to go before he sees kobe. did u watch the lakers-cleveland matchups? LOL...PeACe

lol and the government is watching your home....probably tapping your phone so they can set you up.  I agree, the media does do this with players. Theyve dont it ever since MJ retired. And they did it with Kobe at one point (sure u didnt complain then). The thing is, like ive said...the media (ESPN included), is always looking for the next MJ. Theyre DYING for the next MJ. And they will ride someone who they think might become that, once they think there is no longer a chance of that happening...they stop riding them. Once they realized Kobe was never going to be the next MJ, they jumped to the next guy. They arent stupid, they dont just pick any old player. They pick players who they see as being great, or potentially great. EVERYone has been raving over LeBron since he hit the league. He's a freak the likes of which the league has just never seen before. He's better then Kobe at this age, he's better then Magic, Bird, Dr J, even MJ...at THIS age. The consensus out there has been, and still is, that LeBron knows how to keep his teammates interested in a game more then Kobe...which is part of why he is looked at as a better leader.  This is how things are. You can argue it with your Kobe bias all you want. But like I said, Im not even a fan of LeBron...or Kobe. I just see things from the outside with no bias one way or the other. They can both fail for all I care, it wouldnt matter to me.

Kobe is the only thing comparable to MJ since MJ and that's final. Kobe is the only current player in the NBA with the skillset to retire as the GOAT if he plays his cards right...face it. the LeBron hype is ridiculous, and you know it...PeACe

lol yeah thats the common consensus...Kobe will surpass Jordan. lol  You live in a fantasy world NIK, and obviously will never join the rest of us who have to use these crazy things called common sense and logic in our arguments.  You know damn well, as does everyone else on here...Kobe will NEVER, i repeat NEVER surpass Jordan lol.  Kobe could win 5 more titles, and still not be seen as being on Jordans level.  The NBA (or most sports for that matter) has never been about numbers, or even titles when youre rating players. Bill Russell has more titles then Jordan, but no one would say he was better all time then MJ. Karl Malone has more points, but no one would say Malone> Jordan.  Kobe has absolutely NO chance at surpassing him. Everyone else knows that. The reason the media is jumping on LeBron so much this year, is because they (just like many others) feel he might have a legitimate shot at becoming the GOAT. They realize Kobe will not, and thats why they focus on LeBron. They arent stupid.  Kobe is ONLY comparable to Jordan because of his style of a play, not the quality of it. 

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

Terrible choice for a moderator

thats obvious

[herpes]

Terrible choice for a moderator

thats obvious

This place needs a mod that follows more than just the Lakers.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

Terrible choice for a moderator

thats obvious

This place needs a mod that follows more than just the Lakers.

at least a COUPLE other sports...and other teams within the ONE sport he follows.  Not to mention, most of the bullshit threads and posts that people complain about in here, come from the Mod lol

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^that's some female ass shit...I feel bad for dudes who think like that and speak from emotion as opposed to logic.

but you speak from you emotions all the time LMAO.

you love Kobe; love = emotion.

your emotions just make you always speak positively about him.

lol NIK cant see it, because he's in love. So he doesnt realize how ridiculous he looks to everyone else.  He thinks all these Laker fans (mostly cheerleaders) agree with him, when in reality more of the time they dont. They just dont speak up.  A lot of them might think Kobe is better then LeBron, and thats fine. Thats their opinion.  But they dont agree with him when he makes idiotic comments about players like Kwame Brown bein the next great thing, or Farmar, or Sasha, or Bynum > Howard lol.  What NIK has done over the years, is say the Lakers are the best ALL the time. So that during that one instance (maybe this year) when they are...he can say "i told you so". Completely ignoring the fact that it has been YEARS since anyone could say that.

Kobe is by far the best player on the planet and there's nothing ridiculous about that claim. there is, however, something very ridiculous about the overpraise LeBron has received this whole season.

The reason people think youre a joke on this forum, is because of this kind of shit lol A huge portion of the basketball world (analysts, media, fans, etc.) say LeBron is the best right now.  I think basketball is complex enough that you cant have "one" best player. Only with MJ was there a clear cut "best".  There hasnt been since him, and there wasnt before him.  There have been groups of players that were the best at different times. But to claim that saying LeBron is the best is ridiculous...when SOOOO many others say he is, only makes your "Kobe is the best" claim look that much more silly.

notice how you say "people think" because you wanna feel supported in your arguments against...lol. just speak for yourself, son. Magic was the best of his time, Jordan was the best of his, and Kobe is the best now. Kobe=clear cut best. even the LeBron dickriders are starting to see it again. get with the program.

What he's saying is that with Jordan there was no argument. During the entire 80s it was "Magic or Larry?" and whether you personally think Larry wasn't at the same level (an opinion that would flip flop completely if Larry was the Laker in the argument) isn't the issue. The issue is there was an argument. What was the argument in the 90s? When you say best NBA player of the 90s will any NBA analyst, hardcore fan, player, coach, etc say anyone other than Jordan? The answer is no. In the 80s maybe 95% would say either Magic or Larry with the other 5% maybe saying someone else. Since Jordan if you ask who has been the most valuable player in the league no where near 100% of the people will say Kobe. Shaq would get most of the votes, and then Kobe and Duncan would be debated (yeah big men and guards are different but no one argues "Larry, Magic, or Jabbar?". Best is best and best means most likely to make your team a winner). And today right now, the fact that they even debate LeBron vs Kobe. The fact that you even take time out to debate it. Proves with out any doubt that Kobe is not ahead of the pack the way Jordan in the 90s was.

Would a Jordan fan even enter a thread "Jordan vs Barkley" or "Jordan vs Hakeem"? The answer is no. Unless you're just a complete twit. If there was a thread tomorrow about "Who is the greatest Miami Dolphins QB of all time?" all you would see would be two or three posts that say Dan Marino and then the thread would fade away. Because if someone was stupid enough to mention Griese or Morall, a response to those ridiculous claims wouldn't be warranted and the thread would fade away.

So just accept it; Kobe will never be seen like Jordan was in the 90s.

Kobe might never be seen that way to the general public, but it doesn't mean that he's not as talented a player and still has a high chance at achieving as much, if not more than Jordan did...the fact that there weren't as many premier perimeter players in Jordan's era shouldn't be a knock on Kobe. I mean, who did Joran really go up against? Dominique Wilkins? Clyde Drexler? Wilkins is to Jordan as LeBron is to Kobe. LeBron is really no where near Kobe. He's more comparable to the likes of Wade, Melo, T-Mac in his prime etc...Kobe is ALREADY in the upper echelon with Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc. and the fact that he's not as celebrated or marketed as Jordan was does not change that fact...PeACe

[S P I C E]

^^Who did Jordan go against!?!?!?!  How about Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc.  LOL cmon NIK

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^^Who did Jordan go against!?!?!?!  How about Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc.  LOL cmon NIK

I'm talking about perimeter players, man...LOL. come on. Reggie Miller is good, but just like he couldn't fuck with MJ, he couldn't fuck with Kobe either. you didn't make any valid points, dawg...PeACe

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^that's some female ass shit...I feel bad for dudes who think like that and speak from emotion as opposed to logic.

but you speak from you emotions all the time LMAO.

you love Kobe; love = emotion.

your emotions just make you always speak positively about him.

lol NIK cant see it, because he's in love. So he doesnt realize how ridiculous he looks to everyone else.  He thinks all these Laker fans (mostly cheerleaders) agree with him, when in reality more of the time they dont. They just dont speak up.  A lot of them might think Kobe is better then LeBron, and thats fine. Thats their opinion.  But they dont agree with him when he makes idiotic comments about players like Kwame Brown bein the next great thing, or Farmar, or Sasha, or Bynum > Howard lol.  What NIK has done over the years, is say the Lakers are the best ALL the time. So that during that one instance (maybe this year) when they are...he can say "i told you so". Completely ignoring the fact that it has been YEARS since anyone could say that.

Kobe is by far the best player on the planet and there's nothing ridiculous about that claim. there is, however, something very ridiculous about the overpraise LeBron has received this whole season.

The reason people think youre a joke on this forum, is because of this kind of shit lol A huge portion of the basketball world (analysts, media, fans, etc.) say LeBron is the best right now.  I think basketball is complex enough that you cant have "one" best player. Only with MJ was there a clear cut "best".  There hasnt been since him, and there wasnt before him.  There have been groups of players that were the best at different times. But to claim that saying LeBron is the best is ridiculous...when SOOOO many others say he is, only makes your "Kobe is the best" claim look that much more silly.

notice how you say "people think" because you wanna feel supported in your arguments against...lol. just speak for yourself, son. Magic was the best of his time, Jordan was the best of his, and Kobe is the best now. Kobe=clear cut best. even the LeBron dickriders are starting to see it again. get with the program.

What he's saying is that with Jordan there was no argument. During the entire 80s it was "Magic or Larry?" and whether you personally think Larry wasn't at the same level (an opinion that would flip flop completely if Larry was the Laker in the argument) isn't the issue. The issue is there was an argument. What was the argument in the 90s? When you say best NBA player of the 90s will any NBA analyst, hardcore fan, player, coach, etc say anyone other than Jordan? The answer is no. In the 80s maybe 95% would say either Magic or Larry with the other 5% maybe saying someone else. Since Jordan if you ask who has been the most valuable player in the league no where near 100% of the people will say Kobe. Shaq would get most of the votes, and then Kobe and Duncan would be debated (yeah big men and guards are different but no one argues "Larry, Magic, or Jabbar?". Best is best and best means most likely to make your team a winner). And today right now, the fact that they even debate LeBron vs Kobe. The fact that you even take time out to debate it. Proves with out any doubt that Kobe is not ahead of the pack the way Jordan in the 90s was.

Would a Jordan fan even enter a thread "Jordan vs Barkley" or "Jordan vs Hakeem"? The answer is no. Unless you're just a complete twit. If there was a thread tomorrow about "Who is the greatest Miami Dolphins QB of all time?" all you would see would be two or three posts that say Dan Marino and then the thread would fade away. Because if someone was stupid enough to mention Griese or Morall, a response to those ridiculous claims wouldn't be warranted and the thread would fade away.

So just accept it; Kobe will never be seen like Jordan was in the 90s.

Here's the thing, I sort of agree with you, but I also think that this argument has a WAAAY different background than the MJ era.

In 1991, we got the dream match up, Magic Johnson and his 5 rings, going against Michael who was going for number 1, and the commercial buzz was surrounding MJ. Nike and the NBA was pushing Michael, because even though Magic was only 31, he had a lot of miles in him. Of course MJ won, he beat the previous best, Magic retired because of HIV and the rest is history. There was an undisputed best, and each and every year MJ proved it over and over again.

When MJ retired, no one beat him, so there was a scrabble to the crown, I'd even argue that the Spurs were more dominate than the Lakers for longer, as even though the Lakers 3peated, the Spurs did win 4. So in 9 years, the Lakers and Spurs won 7 titles between them, and appeared in 8. So the argument was alive between Shaq and Duncan, though when Shaq was with the Lakers it leaned Shaq, but Duncan had a right to the crown too.

In 2003, the whole turned upside down. Without a doubt, the Lakers were building for Shaq to age, and Kobe to take over. In the 2002-2003 season, the Lakers missed the finals, but Kobe averaged 30ppg and was over taken Shaq as the best Laker. Then the rape trail. I'll argue that the rape trail screwed Kobe over so much in terms of endorsements and MVP awards. After Shaq left in 2003, Kobe was the best player in the league, the Lakers traded Shaq for young players to complement their young star, but it was a building process. At the same time, Kobe dominated the league, but due to the rape trail, there was not Kobe commercials, there was no Kobe in lyrics, Kobe was a beast, but there was no calls going his way in games. Instead the MVP awards that he should have won went to Steve Nash, a much more safe player to call your best in the eyes of the public. Kobe was scoring 81 points, had multiple 60 point games, leading a team that outside of him would be pushing for number 1 pick in the lottery and taking them to game 7 with the number 1 seed. But the image of Kobe is done.

Last year, the Lakers finally came to play with Kobe, and it was suppose to be Kobe's year. They finally awarded him the MVP, even though it should have been Pauls year, and the Lakers ran through the NBA playoffs. Experts picked the Lakers to win it all, even though across from them was not one future Hall of Famer, but 3. Last year, the league finally market Kobe, but it was not to be, and the league knows that at 30, and all the miles on those knees, time is coming.

Enter LeBron, Lebron is the future, his the most physically dominating player since Shaq, and I'd argue that LeBron today is like Dr. J in the 70's, such a great athlete that players in him era are not even close to his level. The differents is that in MJ's era, MJ was not the best athlete, so many players in the 90's could claim that title. MJ was the best player, the most skilled that the hungriest player to ever lace up snickers. Kobe is that now, Kobe is not the best athlete, but Kobe is the most skilled. The NBA is ready to market LeBron to the moon, and the fact that people have a negative opinion on Kobe mean that people are willing to buy LeBron>Kobe. From 2003-2009, it's been all Kobe, best player, but the league did reflect that. Now Kobe is at the point were he will not be denied. I've never seen Kobe this determined. If this keeps up, look for a Laker repeat next year. I don't see a 3peat, but I do see back to back. Kobe will no be denied, and after these finals, it will be settled. Kobe >> LeBron, for now.

Real shit. It's hilarious how people don't realize that marketing has so much to do with why Jordan was seen the way he was. LOL. Also the fact that he came into the league at a perfect time, when marketing and merchandise sales were just taking off and was becoming serious business... If Kobe, with the current skill set he has today, was placed in the same situation, the possibilities are endless...PeACe

[GangstaBoogy]

^^Who did Jordan go against!?!?!?!  How about Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc.  LOL cmon NIK

Ouch, having to list PF's and C's is a knock against your own argument.

[S P I C E]

^^Who did Jordan go against!?!?!?!  How about Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc.  LOL cmon NIK

I'm talking about perimeter players, man...LOL. come on. Reggie Miller is good, but just like he couldn't fuck with MJ, he couldn't fuck with Kobe either. you didn't make any valid points, dawg...PeACe

LOL Reggie could fuck with MJ as he did take him to game 7 and was closer to beating MJ then anyone else ever during their title runs and Reggie Miller could definitely fuck with Kobe.  Was he as good? Nah not quite but could definitely hang with them, he proved it lol

[S P I C E]

^^Who did Jordan go against!?!?!?!  How about Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, etc.  LOL cmon NIK

Ouch, having to list PF's and C's is a knock against your own argument.

No it isnt, I just mentioned a few of the great players whose teams Jordan had to go against, step it up guys.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

daygostylz is retarded, foreal...he doesn't realize we've been over this many times before. i've explained so many times in the past how lebron's hype in the media is mostly over financial purposes, yet he keeps bringing up how the media makes claims of lebron being better. lebron is closer to a carmelo or a wade than he is to a kobe. there is nothing "slow" about that, idiot...the only thing slow is you not getting that the NBA is trying it's hardest to act like lebron is on kobes level so that they can fabricate a rivalry. watch 'em play. lebron has a ways to go before he sees kobe. did u watch the lakers-cleveland matchups? LOL...PeACe

lol and the government is watching your home....probably tapping your phone so they can set you up.  I agree, the media does do this with players. Theyve dont it ever since MJ retired. And they did it with Kobe at one point (sure u didnt complain then). The thing is, like ive said...the media (ESPN included), is always looking for the next MJ. Theyre DYING for the next MJ. And they will ride someone who they think might become that, once they think there is no longer a chance of that happening...they stop riding them. Once they realized Kobe was never going to be the next MJ, they jumped to the next guy. They arent stupid, they dont just pick any old player. They pick players who they see as being great, or potentially great. EVERYone has been raving over LeBron since he hit the league. He's a freak the likes of which the league has just never seen before. He's better then Kobe at this age, he's better then Magic, Bird, Dr J, even MJ...at THIS age. The consensus out there has been, and still is, that LeBron knows how to keep his teammates interested in a game more then Kobe...which is part of why he is looked at as a better leader.  This is how things are. You can argue it with your Kobe bias all you want. But like I said, Im not even a fan of LeBron...or Kobe. I just see things from the outside with no bias one way or the other. They can both fail for all I care, it wouldnt matter to me.

Kobe is the only thing comparable to MJ since MJ and that's final. Kobe is the only current player in the NBA with the skillset to retire as the GOAT if he plays his cards right...face it. the LeBron hype is ridiculous, and you know it...PeACe

lol yeah thats the common consensus...Kobe will surpass Jordan. lol  You live in a fantasy world NIK, and obviously will never join the rest of us who have to use these crazy things called common sense and logic in our arguments.  You know damn well, as does everyone else on here...Kobe will NEVER, i repeat NEVER surpass Jordan lol.  Kobe could win 5 more titles, and still not be seen as being on Jordans level.  The NBA (or most sports for that matter) has never been about numbers, or even titles when youre rating players. Bill Russell has more titles then Jordan, but no one would say he was better all time then MJ. Karl Malone has more points, but no one would say Malone> Jordan.  Kobe has absolutely NO chance at surpassing him. Everyone else knows that. The reason the media is jumping on LeBron so much this year, is because they (just like many others) feel he might have a legitimate shot at becoming the GOAT. They realize Kobe will not, and thats why they focus on LeBron. They arent stupid.  Kobe is ONLY comparable to Jordan because of his style of a play, not the quality of it. 

LMAO